Is a 999 year the same as a Freehold?

[gins twin]

I am currently negotiating with the freeholder to buy the freehold of my property.

After months of going back and forth they are now offering (at the same price) a 999 year lease with peppercorn rent.

Are the rights the same as if i owned the freehold. In other words can the landlord still charge me if i want to make changes etc and do i still needs his permission?

I realize each case is different but generally is a 999 year lease the same as freehold and is it valued the same ?

many thanks

[johnboy]

A lease is a lease a freehold is a freehold you still wont have control of the maintenance or insurance and have to ask for permissions which may or may not have a fee.

A lease is basically a time share and you dont own the bricks and morter.

[gins twin]

Thanks Johnboy

Without boring you all with all of the details, bearing in mind Johnboys comment would you agree that the "financial value" of a 999 year lease is less than I would pay for a Freehold.

[thevaliant]

As mentioned, a lease is a lease. If you are being offered a lease extension to 999 years with a peppercorn rent OR the freehold for the same price, then take the freehold. It's far better.

You should pay less for the lease extension than the whole freehold. In theory, that 'less' is probably only a few pounds, but as JohnBoy says, allowing someone else to retain the freehold still allows them to have a say (sometimes a considerable say) in the property you lease.

[gins twin]

As mentioned, a lease is a lease. If you are being offered a lease extension to 999 years with a peppercorn rent OR the freehold for the same price, then take the freehold. It's far better.

You should pay less for the lease extension than the whole freehold. In theory, that 'less' is probably only a few pounds, but as JohnBoy says, allowing someone else to retain the freehold still allows them to have a say (sometimes a considerable say) in the property you lease.

Thanks. I am not being offered either of them for the same price. Basically I had dealt on the freehold but after months of complicated wrangling have now been told it will be a 999 year lease.

My problem is this. There are 6 residents within the unit. I only want to proceed if its the freehold the others are comfortable going ahead as a lease extension. My argument is that the price was agreed for a freehold not a lease extension. Unfortunately my neighbors don't see it the same way!

[andydd]

The main difference (and maybe the biggest reason why people want to obtain the freehold or at least a RTM) is that you take over the management of the property yourself instead of it being managed by the freeholder and having to pay him (sometimes very large !) service charges.

Ground Rent, be it peppercorn or perhaps a few huindred pounds isnt much of an issue for leaseholders.

Andy

[Gordon999]

A leasehold title = long term rental agreement. The leaseholder( tenant) owns a rental contract and can be subject to forfeiture for a breach of the lease. The wording of the lease still applies
e.g freeholder consent required for (1) to sublet or (2) sale and transfer the flat to next owner or (3) register a change of mortgage lender (4)alter the inside of your flat.

A freehold title = full ownership of the building and land and having power to make decision.

If your leaseholders can afford to pay for 999 year lease extension, then they can afford to buy the freehold title.

What is the annual ground rent and years left on your leases ?

[gins twin]

Thanks Andy.

We already self manage . The issue is that the landlord ( a developer ) has over the years made life costly with various charges etc.

Our flats have been offered to us as freehold but the garages which are on the lease have now been removed from the freehold offer and reoffered as 999 year leases.

For a variety of reasons I do not want to just extend my lease on the garage I want the freehold. Other residents keep saying its as good as freehold but as you all have said quite clearly it isn't.

[gins twin]

Thanks Gordon for your detailed reply.

If you read my reply just below yours to Andy you will see its a little complex.

The garage I refer to has a ground rent of 50 pounds p.a there are roughly 160 years left.

[leaseholdanswers]

Incorrect replies ?

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

Is this is not about a flat, but THE flats? The freehold estate is being offered to them on a 999 year lease,with it seems that garages retained by the freeholder.

While you do not own the "bricks and mortar" the responsibility and control is being passed to the flat owners who will become, collectively, "full repairing and insuring" head leaseholders ( while individually retaining their own leases).

I that respect it is "almost freehold" as the block is unlikely to be there in 999 years, or at least rebuilt many many times over, by the had lessor, not the freeholder.

[gins twin]

Sorry in attempting to generalize and not get into details I have confused the issue.

We live in 6 converted flats. Currently self managed on 160 year leases with ground rent

The flats each have a garage included in the leases.

The freeholder offered the freehold to us.

We agreed and agreed the price. After a long protracted deal he is finally saying that we can buy the freehold of the building but the garages are to be on a 999 year lease.

I do not want a 999 year lease as I want the developer to know longer be involved even from afar.

So my problem is that my neighbours feel with a 999 year lease on the garages it's as good as freehold. I disagree.

[thevaliant]

I wrongly initially thought the property you referred to was a house.

I must admit, at present a 160 year lease is pretty long. Long enough at the moment to not have to worry about marriage values and all that malarky for another 80 years, probably long after you are dead.

Obviously, acquiring the freehold is a good deal. Extending to merely 999 year leases isn't much better than what you have now. It also seems strange to want to retain the leases only on the garage area.

You can threaten to go down the RTE route, but I'm not sure if that would get you the garages anyway.

[Gordon999]

Thanks Gordon for your detailed reply.

If you read my reply just below yours to Andy you will see its a little complex.

The garage I refer to has a ground rent of 50 pounds p.a there are roughly 160 years left.

If the garage was originally sold with the flat and is situated inside the boundary of the estate , you may be able to claim the freehold of the garage as "appurtenant property" to the leasehold flat. You need to consult a solicitor specialising on leasehold enfranchisement.

[Richard Webster]

I often have to say "Read the lease". This is true here as well. Whilst it is quite likely that the freeholder's motivation for retaining the freehold reversion on the 999 year leases of the garages is to retain some element of control, it all depends on the terms of the proposed leases.

[JK0]

I bet freeholder wants to keep garages so he can build on top of them.