Holiday Lets are breach of lease - Yes or No?

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  • leaseholdanswers
    replied
    For once I agree with Ram's sentiments. But that doesn't stop me from trying to comment constructively.

    There is case law which turns on possession where, even for a short period or succession of periods, whether the tenant had
    allowed another person into physical occupation with the
    intention of relinquishing his own exclusive possession of the
    premises to that other person. Given right to entry are often limited contractually and certainly under statute, you or your agent are not free to enter as you wish, and you cannot contract out of that.

    Given the clear intention of the lease, it is awfully difficult otherwise.

    And you have to read the whole clause that prevents underletting. it falls to an interpretation of the lease that consent is implied to under let the whole for 6+ months, and that you can only do otherwise if the company consents. That is a strong basis to say that consent to do otherwise is at the landlords discretion, and not subject to reasonableness.

    You need to appreciate that if there were a situation where consent were given inducing others to do the same, you might operate a high standard of letting and resolve any issues arising. many however do not. And that is hell on those that live there every day.

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  • ram
    replied
    Originally posted by wharton View Post
    we always have the right of entry to the property, even when a guest is staying, we use the post box (not the guest) etc
    Of course you can enter YOUR property, if your let allows you, but
    you still don't live there.

    Your attitude is one of,
    I don't care what the lease says, I don't care if the residents are put to
    extra costs, and if anyone stands in my way of making money, I don't
    care what havoc and misery I inflict on the residents.

    you asked a question "Holiday Lets are breach of lease ?"
    And the answers you have been given are, YES, it is a breach of the lease.
    You have your answer.

    If you get your own way, the service charge will have to go up, as there
    could be thousands of pounds having to be spent on legal fees to get you
    to observe the lease, or get you out if you just barge in there and do what
    you think is your god dam right to do.

    I have now, no sympathy for you whatsoever.

    R.a.M.

    Leave a comment:


  • wharton
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
    Once again you can only part with possession to sell or let on an AST of 6+ months.
    A holiday let does not mean you part with possession (this is specifically mentioned in our Terms and Conditions of any holiday booking which they have to accept before they can stay). We have successfully argued this on a different property, we always have the right of entry to the property, even when a guest is staying, we use the post box (not the guest) etc

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholdanswers
    replied
    I am aware of the LVT decision, and we have already argued, successfully, that these decisions are not precedent, and that the definition can be flawed if it is out of context.

    In this case it is not a tautology; the lease clearly intends to create a home for a single family unit for the duration of the lease, or if underlet for at least 6 months, not for a short let of a week or two duration.

    Once again you can only part with possession to sell or let on an AST of 6+ months.

    Leave a comment:


  • wharton
    replied
    In a Leasehold Valuation Tribunal in February 2010 they stated "Single private residence: We regard the word "single" to be tautological i.e. that it relates to the premises being used only by one family or household as stated later in the clause. "Private" we consider again to be tautological inasmuch as it relates to one family or household. The word "residence", according to the Oxford English Dictionary means "a person's home; the fact of residing somewhere". We do not consider this limits the person to their normal home: people can make a temporary home by treating their present living accommodation as such. We think this is borne out by the second part of the dictionary definition which reflects the actual living arrangements at a particular time."

    We understand residents are wary of holiday lets (we have 3 others) but find, for the standard of holiday lets we operate, there is less wear and tear than when there is a long let tenant in (in the past we operated long lets at some properties). In one property where we have a holiday let the area surrounding our entrance is immaculate whereas the property next door which is let long term has "bike bumps" all around the entrance where he takes his bike in and out each day.

    Thanks for you comments and thoughts though.

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholdanswers
    replied
    Just to recap.

    1: The term "private dwelling" is unlikely to be read as a holiday let.
    2: The ability to underlet is predicated on it being a 6 month + AST,, unless it is, the rest of the qualifiers are irrelevant.

    Leases rarely allow detailed assessment of the quality of let, and if they could, would more likely be held as unreasonable. The record of holiday lets and the burden they place on the residents is why there is such a negative response.

    It is not just the obvious problem that can arise, but the knocks and dents on walls of suitcases being dragged up and down on a weekly basis and the hustle and bustle of arrival and departure that is disturbing in an otherwise quiet block.

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  • wharton
    replied
    I think the forum and its contributors are very helpful. However my response was specifically for RaM and I was not addressing the contributors as a whole.

    Leave a comment:


  • ram
    replied
    A message FROM R.a.M.

    Originally posted by wharton View Post
    We do not appreciate being threatened.
    or we let someone else buy it and either the new owner or their tenant
    cause you parking and refuse collection problems.
    Reply to wharton, but also for others reading these posts.

    I am often chastised for my truthful and unconventional writings on here.
    However, many is the time I have been thanked for going a route that
    explains complications or hassles that will occur, or for things that are
    not easily seen by those who, can only see the legal aspects, and forget
    the human / moral / duty aspects.

    I take no offence from writings on here, but welcome it, as I do have a
    tendancy to "shout" sometimes.

    Yes, you seem to have covered the good aspects of a holiday rental,
    which is a credit to you, and Yes, I do have experience in quality holiday
    lets, both giving and receiving, be it only for 12 months.

    Your statement "or we let someone else buy it and either the new owner
    or their tenant cause you parking and refuse collection problems."

    In that case, if the lease is breached, the new owners will be asked to stop or
    forefiture of flat will be instigated, or court action to obtain an injunction.
    So that's no problem.

    My "about me states"
    Biography
    Gives non legal advice (extreem cases). Puts different slant on the problem. ( it works )

    So accept my writings as unconventional, but said in a way to bring home the
    problems a certain way of renting a flat can bring to those that live on the premises,
    and why sometimes the wellbeing of those already on the property outweigh
    the disruption incoming owners will bring.

    The needs of the many, should be considered over the needs of the one.
    But the law is against the many, and the many have to make a stand, often to
    the anoyance of prospective purchasers.

    P.S.
    I can and have argued the case
    a) for tenants, for landlords, for freeholders, managing administrator.
    b) against tenants, landlords, and freeholders, managing administrator.( agents )
    as I am all 4, and see all sides of the story, so any perceived attack on anyone,
    was not an attack,- I just had my Flat owners hat on.

    No offence taken, Mr. Wharton.

    R.a.M.
    Last edited by ram; 03-08-2011, 17:39 PM. Reason: P.S. added

    Leave a comment:


  • mariner
    replied
    We, the regular contributors to this forum, do not tar all LLs, nor Ts, with the same brush.
    "your experience is with the landlords and tenants of AST's. We offer Luxury holiday lets - this is an area you have no experience of, either in the standards we keep with our guests...." and how do you KNOW that?
    You are stuffed by the AST requirement and by 'no structural alterations' condition. You do not want to just replace the stairs but alter the size of a bedroom.
    If you purchase the property you become 20% of the Management Co making the decisions. If 3 are against any of your proposals, you lose!
    Lawcruncher offers could advice, the flat does not appear to fit your business model.

    "I know which option looks like less trouble to me ...." so take it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Interlaken
    replied
    Ram was not threatening you.

    Leave a comment:


  • wharton
    replied
    Our reply was to RaM

    Leave a comment:


  • Interlaken
    replied
    Wharton - no one was threatening you.

    If you are soooo sure what you are doing is right then why are you asking for comment on a residential landlord site. - Luxury holiday lets - you'll be telling us you know all your clients personally and can vouch for their behaviour next. LOL.

    Leave a comment:


  • wharton
    replied
    A message for Ram

    Originally posted by ram View Post
    As I am one on those persons who has to answer the questions you put to the management company, I would also ensure you do not buy to let out as a holday let.
    We do not appreciate being threatened.

    We politely wrote and put our suggestions forward to the Management Company.

    You should not tar all landlords with the same brush - your experience is with the landlords and tenants of AST's. We offer Luxury holiday lets - this is an area you have no experience of, either in the standards we keep with our guests or how a luxury holiday let and its parking space are
    managed. Regarding the refuse collection - all refuse would be removed from the property by our agent, so in no way would impact on the other owners. We have a local property manager to look after the property .... if it were let as an AST you would have an absent landlord. Isnt it a better situation to have a luxury holiday let where a manager calls in once or twice a week?

    The alternative to our operating this property as a luxury holiday let
    (we let mainly to the retired or middle age range), would be that we rent it out under an AST (could be students / young people more likely to cause a disturbance) and you "may" get the same problems as above or we let someone else buy it and either the new owner or their tenant cause you parking and refuse collection problems.

    I know which option looks like less trouble to me .....

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    I should forget buying this flat and look for another if you want to let it for holidays. Even if the position is not 100% clear you are going to have all sort of disputes and you do not want that.

    Leave a comment:


  • LesleyAnne
    replied
    I would agree with most of what RaM has said. We have a leasehold flat which we let with the consent of the freeholder, but only allowed to do so on a residential tenancy. I can fully understand why others in the block and the freeholder themselves, do not want constant comings and going of new "tenants" every week/weekend/fortnight, nor the noise, hassle, parking issues etc that goes with the mentality of people who are on holiday to enjoy themselves regardless of the residents that live around the property.

    Besides, we looked into selling our flat last year and buying a property specifically to change to holiday use, and when we weighed up the additional costs, ie cleaning/servicing the property, additional insurance, PAT testing requirements, general wear and tear of furnishings (we currently let unfurnished), voids in let during low season (you really need to calculate income on a maximum 26 weeks a year guaranteed let), marketing costs; we found the residential 52 weeks a year letting income was only slightly less than we would get on a similar sized property for holidays.

    Leave a comment:

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