Does "Disposition" include an AST

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    #16
    Originally posted by maurice1 View Post
    Thanks for all your views,
    Their letter states"pay a registration fee of £78"
    but my lease doesn't mention registration fees.
    I would be looking for a determination from the Northern panel, but from reading here they may not be able to deliberate on the registration fee.

    I presume that the LVT could rule on:
    Does "Disposition" include an AST
    If I were you I would have a go. It will only cost you £50 (plus a lot of photocopying). Just lay out the facts, and the letters you have exchanged, and see what the result is. Your freeholder's demands are outrageously stupid, and he even quoted you a law that refers to land registry rather than leasehold matters. I would hope your LVT may tell him to get lost completely.
    To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by maurice1 View Post
      but my lease doesn't mention registration fees.
      Well it does, take a look at the last two lines of your quote in the first post.


      Originally posted by jamesknight0 View Post
      If I were you I would have a go. It will only cost you £50 (plus a lot of photocopying).
      While I am inclined to agree he is required to pay a fee, contractually of not less than £50 plus VAT. £50 plus £50 plus VAT is more than £78.

      Frankly in the same spirit I would send him the notice and £60 ( if they are VAT registered) and let him stew on the £18.
      Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

      Comment


        #18
        Thanks James & Leaseholdanswers,
        I noticed that I have to pay a reg fee for numerous things, but Does "Disposition include an AST" ??.

        #LHanswers, in your post #3 My LL calls it a registration fee.Is it inside the jurisdiction of the Act and therefore the LVT??.

        #James - Could you give me the link where you found your post #2. I like your text as it is easier to read rather than s27 LRA2002
        I searched Wikipedia for Disposition but I couldn't come up with your text. My Landlord quotes LRA2002.

        I am feeling confident that I could win the £78 renewal after 6 months but if I loose He has said that he intends to come after me for all his costs.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by maurice1 View Post
          Thanks James & Leaseholdanswers,
          I noticed that I have to pay a reg fee for numerous things, but Does "Disposition include an AST" ??.

          #LHanswers, in your post #3 My LL calls it a registration fee.Is it inside the jurisdiction of the Act and therefore the LVT??.

          #James - Could you give me the link where you found your post #2. I like your text as it is easier to read rather than s27 LRA2002
          I searched Wikipedia for Disposition but I couldn't come up with your text. My Landlord quotes LRA2002.

          I am feeling confident that I could win the £78 renewal after 6 months but if I loose He has said that he intends to come after me for all his costs.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Registration_Act_2002

          (I only posted this as a 'tongue in cheek' rebuff to your freeholder, as the law relates to registration at Land Registry, not Freeholders.)

          The LVT does not award costs, except £500 if you have been frivolous or vexatious, so feel free to apply. Your freeholder sounds like a nasty piece of work.
          To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by maurice1 View Post
            Thanks James & Leaseholdanswers,
            I noticed that I have to pay a reg fee for numerous things, but Does "Disposition include an AST" ??.

            #LHanswers, in your post #3 My LL calls it a registration fee.Is it inside the jurisdiction of the Act and therefore the LVT??.

            #James - Could you give me the link where you found your post #2. I like your text as it is easier to read rather than s27 LRA2002
            I searched Wikipedia for Disposition but I couldn't come up with your text. My Landlord quotes LRA2002.

            I am feeling confident that I could win the £78 renewal after 6 months but if I loose He has said that he intends to come after me for all his costs.
            Well as I said earlier your landlord is very confused.

            As James says, the LRA 2002 has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

            Yes an AST is a disposition.

            As a registration fee to the landlord for registering your underletting- the disposition- it is outside of the Act. James feels that he has a decision that says otherwise, however to date
            -all the decisions support it being outside the Act
            -each lease varies

            I suggest you pay £50 as per the lease, VAT is due, and let him swing for the rest.

            Remember you are not in breach, there is no requirement for his consent, it is merely a question of how much to pay him for registration/notification.

            It is an argument over £28, £18 if VAT is due. Send the notice, £50/£60 and let him stew. If he wants to that badly let him file an LVT case , and respond at no cost save time, for yourself.
            Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
              I suggest you pay £50 as per the lease, VAT is due, and let him swing for the rest.

              Remember you are not in breach, there is no requirement for his consent, it is merely a question of how much to pay him for registration/notification.

              It is an argument over £28, £18 if VAT is due. Send the notice, £50/£60 and let him stew. If he wants to that badly let him file an LVT case , and respond at no cost save time, for yourself.
              I was intending to do something similar to this back in April, but Leaseholder001 posted this which I think is relevant, and which convinced me to go to the LVT:

              http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ld-flat/page36

              Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
              It's not something I have experience with but I'll let you know what I think. I'm sure LHA will correct me if I'm wrong.

              I think the drawback for you (no mortgage and not planning to sell) with waiting for the other party to start proceedings is that they may wait until they have racked up further "costs". Then it becomes more of a gamble.

              For example, they can probably (depending on lease) start racking up legal costs for forfeiture once a debt becomes 3 years old or more than £300. They probably don't have to wait to start charging admin costs for letters after you have failed to pay. You could end up with a case with over £1000 at stake, then end up with an LVT panel that don't have a clue.

              If you bring the LVT case yourself over a simple matter then it's not going to cost too much or take too much time. They will probably back down and pay you your fee. If not you will probably win and the LVT will tell them to pay your fee.

              It is my understanding that giving permission to sublet is usually a formality. The only way I could see £210 being reasonable is if they have to get information from you about the tenant which would only be if there are restrictions in the lease as to who can live in the flat. Even then it seems high.
              To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by jamesknight0 View Post
                I was intending to do something similar to this back in April, but Leaseholder001 posted this which I think is relevant, and which convinced me to go to the LVT:
                Aah no that is entirely different. There is no consent here ,therefore no breach, and therefore no fees to be racked up.

                If it were to pursue it as simple debt, it falls to the county court and the Cambridge decision you suggested gives an idea of what a sensible fee is, were the CC to be involved.

                Before proceeding the landlord of course must issue a letter before action, the cost of which in most cases is not recoverable under the lease as a non admin or service charge, and he can them pay. In I hope, pennies!

                If he were pursued for £18 I would be stunned if any judge would accept £78 as a fee for a simple letter saying I used to live at no X, now I live at Y, and for 6 months z does, here are their names and contact info, and entering it into a computer ledger or tally.

                One I know would tell the landlord to get out of his court, patronise him within an inch of his life and then slap costs on the landlord to boot.
                Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Yes, but it's not just £78 that the O/P is being asked for. There is also the matter of the £78 a month if the tenancy goes periodic. Doesn't the O/P need a ruling on that?
                  To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by jamesknight0 View Post
                    Yes, but it's not just £78 that the O/P is being asked for. There is also the matter of the £78 a month if the tenancy goes periodic. Doesn't the O/P need a ruling on that?
                    No, as the disposition does not change. He might simply add "atlo" .. for a term of 6 months and any periodic continuance of the tenancy after expiry of the term...

                    The disposition would only end at such time as a new tenancy is granted.
                    The County Court would rule on that, but without looking it up, I know that this point has already been determined at the LVT where fees have been discussed for extension and renewals.

                    Bear in mind that it turns on the wording of the lease, and that there is a difference between allowing the tenancy to become periodic, and renewing it. That said there are the odd decisions that disagree!

                    One claims that a statutory periodic tenancy is a new tenancy, which it is not as it is a statutory extension of the existing, and can easily be subverted by amending the wording of the notice as above.
                    Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
                      Yes an AST is a disposition.

                      As a registration fee to the landlord for registering your underletting- the disposition- it is outside of the Act. James feels that he has a decision that says otherwise, however to date
                      -all the decisions support it being outside the Act

                      Not quite all, look at

                      http://www.residential-property.judi...y/000013MB.htm
                      To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Unfortunately, as in your second hearing James, because jurisdiction wasn't challenged the tribunal haven't commented on why they think they have it. I can see LHA's point, and I also recently had it from the horse's mouth that LVT's will often assume jurisdiction if there is no challenge. In the cases you know of LHA, has Jeffrey's argument been presented?

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by jamesknight0 View Post
                          This is based on an error of fact, as opposed to a different reasoning or argument.

                          It just shows that an agent cannot simply have a procedure, they must actually look at their leases. But if you are in the business of finding fees...you just bill them and most will simply pay, whether due or not.

                          That said the OP could take reassurance in this case that if he were to accept the case, the fee, for Simarc, is reasonable at £50 plus VAT. There was one at £40 plus VAT for this year.
                          Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Thanks everyone for all the advise.

                            Just to let other owners know.

                            Owners of 20 out of the 30 propertys on the estate got together and employed a solicitor to sort this matter out.
                            We went to the LVT and got this ruling http://www.residential-property.judi...2_15_25_45.htm

                            He applied for an appeal which was turned down
                            Been speaking with the Upper appeals tribunal and they didn't receive an appeal within 14 days, (it is now 6 weeks later).
                            I hope this matter is now closed, (But time will tell!)

                            This whole matter cost a little over £3,400 including a barristers opinion. So approx £170 / LL.


                            Thanks again, I wouldn't have taken this appeal only for this website

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Hey, hey. Well done Maurice.
                              To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                              Comment

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