Additional key for main entrance door to buiilding

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Additional key for main entrance door to buiilding

    I am the voluntary CoSec to the freehold co that owns the building, with all the Lessees having an equal share in the freehold co. ie Lessees with share of freehold.

    The volunteer few try and manage the building for the mutual good of all, and keep tight control on costs etc. We do, as with all buildings, have our challenging Lessee or two. One of these, who let's out the flat to short term tenants and lives elsewhere, has requested that we issue an additional key to the main entrance door to the building, as their new tenant wants a further key.

    There is nothing in the Lease that mentions keys, or an obligation for the Lessor to provide keys. Nothing. This is probably because the Lease predates the type of lock now fitted where the key cannot be copied.

    The question is, are we obliged to supply the key?

    In recent times this Lessee has been supplied with 6 keys, and will not give an undertaking that these are all accounted for, and that none are missing/lost.

    Any advice will be appreciated.

    Thanks

    #2
    I can understand your concern, but the alternative is to have a tenant who cannot gain entry to the building without either breaking in or being a nuisance to others. You can charge your reasonable costs of obtaining and supplying a copy key.

    Comment


      #3
      Apologies, as I overlooked to include a very important detail!

      When the Landlord changed the lock about 2 years ago, we had a lock fitted which requires all keys to be cut through the supplier (Banham) who will only supply to the Landlord, who hold a card that allows for additional keys to be cut.

      As Landlord, we made clear to all Lessees that we wanted to try and control as much as we could the security of the building, especially as there were so many flats being let out to short term tenants. It was one way to ensure that there would be extra vigilance when tenants left to ensure that keys were returned.

      The particular Lessee already has received 6 keys .... and has not given any reassurance as their whereabouts.

      It would be very difficult, by way of non-inclusion in the Lease, for either party to force this as an issue, but would appreciate other's opinion,

      many thanks

      Comment


        #4
        Hi,

        I think you have to be very careful about this situation.If you deny a key I think that could be seen as denying access.I'am sure in the lease it gives the lessee's rights for access to and fro from their flats.
        Another thing that is concerning me is the change in door lock.What does your lease say about improvements,If it is like my lease(which has no allowances for improvents,just repairs,renewals I think the instalation of this system is not chargeable to the service charge account,nor extra keys. Does you lease say anything about door entry systems?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by 40RSMCL View Post
          to the freehold co that owns the building, with all the Lessees having an equal share in the freehold co. ie Lessees with share of freehold.
          Erm, its "with the Lessees having one (?) share per flat in the company which owns the freehold" .

          eg Mr and Mrs LHA are leaseholders of Flat x who jointly hold one share.
          Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by 40RSMCL View Post

            There is nothing in the Lease that mentions keys, or an obligation for the Lessor to provide keys. Nothing. This is probably because the Lease predates the type of lock now fitted where the key cannot be copied.
            I can guarantee that there is a clause allowing each leaseholder the right to pass over and into the common areas. If permitted to let out, then that right is passed to the occupier.

            The installation of a lock impedes that right, which is resolved by issuing keys.

            Having issued say 3 keys per flat, it is reasonable that a charge is made or further keys, and desirable that the keys are registered. That allows you to fax an authorization to say a banhams, EVVA ASSA (or my friends at PESSouthern ) so that they pay for it.

            Failing to take care of the keys can be a breach of terms of the lease, and you are best to look at short lets and if they are permitted under the lease or if a local byelaw, eg city of Westminster, prohibits them.

            In one extreme case we installed digital entry pads and routinely change the codes, it is a lot cheaper and quickly secure if the code is issued to the wrong people or a problem tenant is evicted.
            Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

            Comment


              #7
              Again, thanks to all for the responses.

              The Lease does have the following -

              "Full right and liberty for the Lessee and all persons authorised by him (in common with all other persons entitled to the like right) at all times and for all purposes in connection with the permitted user of the Flat to go pass and repass over and along the forecourt of the Building coloured blue on the plan hereto annexed and through and along the main entrances and the passages landings and Staircases in the Building leading to the Flat"

              Having been issued with 6 keys, the Lessee is not being impeded in gaining access. Now it might be that this Lessee's sub-tenants have lost some of these 6 keys, and there is now a need by the Lessee to obtain further keys, though from the Landlord perspective, any lost keys by sub-tenants should be for the Lessee to resolve.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by 40RSMCL View Post
                Again, thanks to all for the responses.

                The Lease does have the following -

                "Full right and liberty for the Lessee and all persons authorised by him (in common with all other persons entitled to the like right) at all times and for all purposes in connection with the permitted user of the Flat to go pass and repass over and along the forecourt of the Building coloured blue on the plan hereto annexed and through and along the main entrances and the passages landings and Staircases in the Building leading to the Flat"

                Having been issued with 6 keys, the Lessee is not being impeded in gaining access. Now it might be that this Lessee's sub-tenants have lost some of these 6 keys, and there is now a need by the Lessee to obtain further keys, though from the Landlord perspective, any lost keys by sub-tenants should be for the Lessee to resolve.
                Well that confirms the clause exists. However you should reread my last post as the answer is there. Ultimately it might provide leverage to allow changing of the locks at the leaseholders cost, as an alternative to legal action.

                You simply issue new keys a week before the change so everyone has them to hand in advance of the actual lock change.
                Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                Comment


                  #9
                  We have done an "improvement" and fitted security locks, as subtenants
                  may say they have lost the keys, but retain them to enter the common
                  door to enter other flats while all are out during the day, many months later.

                  There is nothing in the lease, but has been said that we cannot have keys
                  out there that could be used to gain entrance for illegal purposes.

                  It has been made plain that lost keys means a replacement lock and issue
                  of new keys to all that have them, including spares they used to have, so it
                  gets expensive to replace the lock, but we have not been questioned about
                  this, as people know that security keys, are just that, - you cant get a copy
                  to give to your mates, to use in 6 months time, or to come back and steal
                  post ( which may contain credit cards ).

                  R.a.M.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    For those of us who have become used to BTL and the 4pm Friday call for a new entry door key from the agent, digital entry or keys fobs quickly become economic solutions as do secure post boxes.
                    Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Some people of private homes / converted homes into flats, do not want
                      to see it looking like a hotel.
                      Want to be able to give keys to a cleaner / workman, butnot want to give
                      the key pass number to workmen who just come in once to do a job,
                      and they never see them again, but they have the entrance number.

                      People also object to other residents giving out the number, not telling
                      anyone else that they have given out the numbe
                      r / code, thereby
                      compromising the security.You may as well give out security keys, and
                      never ask for them back

                      You have a record of how many keys there are, and if one is lost, or when
                      a count of the keys shows a shortfall, you change the lock.
                      You cannot have a head count of all the people that have been given the
                      entrance code, and tell them to return the code or forget the number they
                      were given so that they cannot enter through the SECURITY door.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        No, but you can change the code at no cost.

                        In my experience most break ins do not involve people who have access to the main entry door. Typically they break in through the windows of ground floor flats or communal areas, or they wait for someone to go into the building and follow them in. A security door is minor obstacle to a determined burglar.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ram View Post
                          Some people of private homes / converted homes into flats, do not want
                          to see it looking like a hotel.
                          Well there is no perfect situation. If the code is suspected as being given out, it can be reset by a resident very quickly. Far cheaper than a new lock.

                          If the contractor is so unscrupulous to re enter with the the code they would not think twice about getting duplicate keys on unlicenced or unauthorized trademarked blanks.

                          A home pc/laptop can be quickly uprated with "wifi" cameras such as a hall clock smoke detector or ornament. If there is no break in you erase the days recordings and start over- it's automatic.

                          There are some very tasteful and discrete key pads.
                          Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Tulula View Post
                            No, but you can change the code at no cost. <BR>or they wait for someone to go into the building and follow them in.
                            <BR><BR>Correct ( code ) but residents can't be bothered to tell you they gave the code <BR>out as they don't want to have to remember a new number.<BR>Here, no one would let in a stranger behind them, as it's a security door, and <BR>strangers would have a security key with permission, ( we know how many <BR>there are ) or have to wait outside and ring someones bell. but point taken.

                            I appreciate not all have the same type of vigilance we have, but keys, recorded, and locks
                            changed when one is lost ( looser pays for locks and many new keys ) is the best, in my
                            oppinion. Both systems have their merits.
                            Last edited by ram; 04-07-2011, 08:37 AM. Reason: this site is, as stated before, getting worse every day ,now showing edit controls - BR = new line )

                            Comment

                            Latest Activity

                            Collapse

                            • Freehold shared parking question
                              by Neeeeeeeeeek10
                              We have bought a freehold flat which is one of the few flats in the building that has parking permission in the deeds. There are only a few spaces so it isn't allocated and only the flats that have it in the deeds can park in them. The person who owns the freehold to the shared areas and I assume the...
                              08-08-2022, 17:51 PM
                            • Reply to Freehold shared parking question
                              by Lawcruncher
                              There is no need to get a solicitor to write a letter. Solicitors come expensive these days. I suggest you write a letter to the owner reminding him of the right on your title - quote the words. Tell him that if the posts are not removed within seven days you will engage a workmen to remove them. Get...
                              15-08-2022, 16:53 PM
                            • Bank Account for Residents' Management Company
                              by bigalxyz
                              Am I in the right forum...?

                              I live in a leasehold flat in the basement of a large house. There are 11 flats in total. There has been an agreement in principle for the leaseholders to take over the management of the buildings from the current property management company, which should happen...
                              20-06-2019, 13:37 PM
                            • Reply to Bank Account for Residents' Management Company
                              by lozzywoods
                              Hello, I'm really hoping someone on this thread can help me. Has anyone else had success opening an account for holding maintenance funds for a small block of self managed flats?

                              All the hughstreet banks insist that I must set up a business bank account first, which of course involves paying...
                              15-08-2022, 16:06 PM
                            • Enforcement of Nuisance Clause
                              by comm1985
                              What can a freeholder do to a leaseholder who is subletting to a subtenant that is causing nuisance to the adjacent neighbours (anti social behaviour).

                              Steps Taken so far:

                              1) A police complaint against the subtenant has already been raised by the adjacent neighbours.
                              ...
                              15-08-2022, 10:00 AM
                            • Reply to S146 manipulation
                              by Granger
                              Another option? Could the block company directors refer matters to their Indemnity Insurers and leave the insurers and rogue solicitor to fight it out rather than either the flat owner or freeholder finishing up paying inflated and unwarranted fees? If the freeholder directors were found not liable...
                              15-08-2022, 10:00 AM
                            • S146 manipulation
                              by Granger
                              Interested to get thoughts on this issue.
                              Managing Agent A has ties to solicitor B. Block Company C has a flat owner D who was in arrears of, say, £1500.
                              A advises C that D must be taken to court. B runs up costs of say £8000 preparing case and in anticipation of S146 follow through....
                              13-08-2022, 15:25 PM
                            • Reply to Freehold shared parking question
                              by Neeeeeeeeeek10
                              Thanks lawmaker. there is another planning application (which I refer to earlier) from a few years ago, I am trying to get a colour copy of that as it identifies the exact area existing flat owners with parking in the deeds are allowed to use, it's the forecourt so we know this is the area which he...
                              15-08-2022, 08:36 AM
                            • Reply to S146 manipulation
                              by eagle2
                              The agent and the solicitor would definitely know what they were doing and have an idea of the costs involved. There are different ways of the agent being rewarded but obtaining proof is difficult. To be fair, the management company should be able to rely on advice given to it by an agent and it has...
                              15-08-2022, 05:21 AM
                            • Ground Rent review
                              by Century
                              United Scientific Holdings v Burnley Borough Council

                              Does this case mean that for a residential lease failure to give notice of GR increase during the review period doesn't matter? I.e review can be at any time, even after specified review date?
                              11-08-2022, 14:47 PM
                            Working...
                            X