Additional key for main entrance door to buiilding

[40RSMCL]

I am the voluntary CoSec to the freehold co that owns the building, with all the Lessees having an equal share in the freehold co. ie Lessees with share of freehold.

The volunteer few try and manage the building for the mutual good of all, and keep tight control on costs etc. We do, as with all buildings, have our challenging Lessee or two. One of these, who let's out the flat to short term tenants and lives elsewhere, has requested that we issue an additional key to the main entrance door to the building, as their new tenant wants a further key.

There is nothing in the Lease that mentions keys, or an obligation for the Lessor to provide keys. Nothing. This is probably because the Lease predates the type of lock now fitted where the key cannot be copied.

The question is, are we obliged to supply the key?

In recent times this Lessee has been supplied with 6 keys, and will not give an undertaking that these are all accounted for, and that none are missing/lost.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks

[Tulula]

I can understand your concern, but the alternative is to have a tenant who cannot gain entry to the building without either breaking in or being a nuisance to others. You can charge your reasonable costs of obtaining and supplying a copy key.

[40RSMCL]

Apologies, as I overlooked to include a very important detail!

When the Landlord changed the lock about 2 years ago, we had a lock fitted which requires all keys to be cut through the supplier (Banham) who will only supply to the Landlord, who hold a card that allows for additional keys to be cut.

As Landlord, we made clear to all Lessees that we wanted to try and control as much as we could the security of the building, especially as there were so many flats being let out to short term tenants. It was one way to ensure that there would be extra vigilance when tenants left to ensure that keys were returned.

The particular Lessee already has received 6 keys .... and has not given any reassurance as their whereabouts.

It would be very difficult, by way of non-inclusion in the Lease, for either party to force this as an issue, but would appreciate other's opinion,

many thanks

[hollyhead]

Hi,

I think you have to be very careful about this situation.If you deny a key I think that could be seen as denying access.I'am sure in the lease it gives the lessee's rights for access to and fro from their flats.
Another thing that is concerning me is the change in door lock.What does your lease say about improvements,If it is like my lease(which has no allowances for improvents,just repairs,renewals I think the instalation of this system is not chargeable to the service charge account,nor extra keys. Does you lease say anything about door entry systems?

[leaseholdanswers]

to the freehold co that owns the building, with all the Lessees having an equal share in the freehold co. ie Lessees with share of freehold.

Erm, its "with the Lessees having one (?) share per flat in the company which owns the freehold" .

eg Mr and Mrs LHA are leaseholders of Flat x who jointly hold one share.

[leaseholdanswers]

There is nothing in the Lease that mentions keys, or an obligation for the Lessor to provide keys. Nothing. This is probably because the Lease predates the type of lock now fitted where the key cannot be copied.

I can guarantee that there is a clause allowing each leaseholder the right to pass over and into the common areas. If permitted to let out, then that right is passed to the occupier.

The installation of a lock impedes that right, which is resolved by issuing keys.

Having issued say 3 keys per flat, it is reasonable that a charge is made or further keys, and desirable that the keys are registered. That allows you to fax an authorization to say a banhams, EVVA ASSA (or my friends at PESSouthern ) so that they pay for it.

Failing to take care of the keys can be a breach of terms of the lease, and you are best to look at short lets and if they are permitted under the lease or if a local byelaw, eg city of Westminster, prohibits them.

In one extreme case we installed digital entry pads and routinely change the codes, it is a lot cheaper and quickly secure if the code is issued to the wrong people or a problem tenant is evicted.

[40RSMCL]

Again, thanks to all for the responses.

The Lease does have the following -

"Full right and liberty for the Lessee and all persons authorised by him (in common with all other persons entitled to the like right) at all times and for all purposes in connection with the permitted user of the Flat to go pass and repass over and along the forecourt of the Building coloured blue on the plan hereto annexed and through and along the main entrances and the passages landings and Staircases in the Building leading to the Flat"

Having been issued with 6 keys, the Lessee is not being impeded in gaining access. Now it might be that this Lessee's sub-tenants have lost some of these 6 keys, and there is now a need by the Lessee to obtain further keys, though from the Landlord perspective, any lost keys by sub-tenants should be for the Lessee to resolve.

[leaseholdanswers]

Again, thanks to all for the responses.

The Lease does have the following -

"Full right and liberty for the Lessee and all persons authorised by him (in common with all other persons entitled to the like right) at all times and for all purposes in connection with the permitted user of the Flat to go pass and repass over and along the forecourt of the Building coloured blue on the plan hereto annexed and through and along the main entrances and the passages landings and Staircases in the Building leading to the Flat"

Having been issued with 6 keys, the Lessee is not being impeded in gaining access. Now it might be that this Lessee's sub-tenants have lost some of these 6 keys, and there is now a need by the Lessee to obtain further keys, though from the Landlord perspective, any lost keys by sub-tenants should be for the Lessee to resolve.

Well that confirms the clause exists. However you should reread my last post as the answer is there. Ultimately it might provide leverage to allow changing of the locks at the leaseholders cost, as an alternative to legal action.

You simply issue new keys a week before the change so everyone has them to hand in advance of the actual lock change.

[ram]

We have done an "improvement" and fitted security locks, as subtenants
may say they have lost the keys, but retain them to enter the common
door to enter other flats while all are out during the day, many months later.

There is nothing in the lease, but has been said that we cannot have keys
out there that could be used to gain entrance for illegal purposes.

It has been made plain that lost keys means a replacement lock and issue
of new keys to all that have them, including spares they used to have, so it
gets expensive to replace the lock, but we have not been questioned about
this, as people know that security keys, are just that, - you cant get a copy
to give to your mates, to use in 6 months time, or to come back and steal
post ( which may contain credit cards ).

R.a.M.

[leaseholdanswers]

For those of us who have become used to BTL and the 4pm Friday call for a new entry door key from the agent, digital entry or keys fobs quickly become economic solutions as do secure post boxes.

[ram]

Some people of private homes / converted homes into flats, do not want
to see it looking like a hotel.
Want to be able to give keys to a cleaner / workman, butnot want to give
the key pass number to workmen who just come in once to do a job,
and they never see them again, but they have the entrance number.

People also object to other residents giving out the number, not telling
anyone else that they have given out the number / code, thereby
compromising the security.You may as well give out security keys, and
never ask for them back

You have a record of how many keys there are, and if one is lost, or when
a count of the keys shows a shortfall, you change the lock.
You cannot have a head count of all the people that have been given the
entrance code, and tell them to return the code or forget the number they
were given so that they cannot enter through the SECURITY door.

[Tulula]

No, but you can change the code at no cost.

In my experience most break ins do not involve people who have access to the main entry door. Typically they break in through the windows of ground floor flats or communal areas, or they wait for someone to go into the building and follow them in. A security door is minor obstacle to a determined burglar.

[leaseholdanswers]

Some people of private homes / converted homes into flats, do not want
to see it looking like a hotel.

Well there is no perfect situation. If the code is suspected as being given out, it can be reset by a resident very quickly. Far cheaper than a new lock.

If the contractor is so unscrupulous to re enter with the the code they would not think twice about getting duplicate keys on unlicenced or unauthorized trademarked blanks.

A home pc/laptop can be quickly uprated with "wifi" cameras such as a hall clock smoke detector or ornament. If there is no break in you erase the days recordings and start over- it's automatic.

There are some very tasteful and discrete key pads.

[ram]

No, but you can change the code at no cost. <BR>or they wait for someone to go into the building and follow them in.

<BR><BR>Correct ( code ) but residents can't be bothered to tell you they gave the code <BR>out as they don't want to have to remember a new number.<BR>Here, no one would let in a stranger behind them, as it's a security door, and <BR>strangers would have a security key with permission, ( we know how many <BR>there are ) or have to wait outside and ring someones bell. but point taken.

I appreciate not all have the same type of vigilance we have, but keys, recorded, and locks
changed when one is lost ( looser pays for locks and many new keys ) is the best, in my
oppinion. Both systems have their merits.