LTA 1985 s.21- definitive text

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  • leaseholdanswers
    replied
    Well clearly parliament used to think that it should not, unless more than 4, then though that it should and now clearly has changed its mind but decided not to issue an commencement order.

    As there is no may about it, I agree that they can only work within the law and the acop, and an interpretation of the lease before them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tulula
    replied
    How odd. Parliament clearly didn't think so when it passed the current s21 or they wouldn't have later considered changing it. They should have had in mind what parliament thought then, not what it may or may not think now.

    Leave a comment:


  • andydd
    replied
    Yep, the law is rather a mess, in my case at an LVT, the tribunal deciding that the freeholder could charge for an accountant to audit the service charge despite there being no strict provision for this within the lease and there only being 2 flats, they also appeared to look toward the future proposed wording of S21 where the four flat part is removed, even quoting (wrongly in my opinion) that "parliament clearly think so" refering that every leasehold property has audited accounts, although it is now widely accepted that the proposed changes to S21 will not be bought in force.

    Andy

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholder001
    replied
    Originally posted by TaxiCab View Post
    Hi All,

    Wonder if I can get some advice. I found the excellent definitive text that Jeffrey posted at the beginning of this thread in relation to Section 21 but remain perplexed that subsection 6 on the legislation.gov site here:
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...?timeline=true

    It's the official website but not the same as the text pasted below.
    Jeffrey, would be great to here from you on this, apologies if this is an obvious question, I'm quite new to all this.

    Thanks a lot,
    TC.

    (6) If the service charges in relation to which the costs are relevant costs as mentioned in subsection (1) are payable by the tenants of more than four dwellings, the summary shall be certified by a qualified accountant as:
    (a) in his opinion a fair summary complying with the requirements of subsection (5), and
    (b) being sufficiently supported by accounts, receipts and other documents which have been produced to him
    Hi TaxiCab,

    I don't think Jeffrey posts here any more.

    The link you give is to another subsection - s21A.

    The text Jeffrey has put together is the current "in force" s21 legislation. Sometimes the legislation.gov.uk website contains law that is not yet in force.

    Leave a comment:


  • TaxiCab
    replied
    Section 21 Sub Section 6

    Hi All,

    Wonder if I can get some advice. I found the excellent definitive text that Jeffrey posted at the beginning of this thread in relation to Section 21 but remain perplexed that subsection 6 on the legislation.gov site here:
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...?timeline=true

    It's the official website but not the same as the text pasted below.
    Jeffrey, would be great to here from you on this, apologies if this is an obvious question, I'm quite new to all this.

    Thanks a lot,
    TC.

    (6) If the service charges in relation to which the costs are relevant costs as mentioned in subsection (1) are payable by the tenants of more than four dwellings, the summary shall be certified by a qualified accountant as:
    (a) in his opinion a fair summary complying with the requirements of subsection (5), and
    (b) being sufficiently supported by accounts, receipts and other documents which have been produced to him

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholder001
    replied
    Thanks Jeffrey

    Leave a comment:


  • jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
    In regard to s21A**, I see that there are two versions:

    26/07/2002

    1/12/2008

    Do you know if either are in force?
    ** You mean s.21!
    Neither is. The current version of s.21 (ed. 5) reflects only the amendments in 1986/1987/1989/1996.

    Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
    My own feeling is that, because s21A doesn't confer power to make regulations, then effectively s21A is not in force. However I'm not confident as it seems quite complicated and I could easily have missed something.
    You're right. Section 21A is not substantively in force.

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholder001
    replied
    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
    I agree. The last four paragraphs of post #16 are simply inaccurate, as the law stands.
    They derive from the 2008-revised version of s.21 [= edition 7!], not in force.
    Thanks for clarification.

    In regard to s21A, I see that there are two versions:

    26/07/2002

    1/12/2008

    Do you know if either are in force?

    My own feeling is that, because s21A doesn't confer power to make regulations, then effectively s21A is not in force. However I'm not confident as it seems quite complicated and I could easily have missed something.

    Leave a comment:


  • jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
    Then why are you referring to the proposed s21 rather than the "in force" legislation?
    I agree. The last four paragraphs of post #16 are simply inaccurate, as the law stands.
    They derive from the 2008-revised version of s.21 [= edition 7!], not in force.

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholder001
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
    No I am not confusing this at all!
    Then why are you referring to the proposed s21 rather than the "in force" legislation?

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholdanswers
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
    You appear to be confusing s21B(2) with s21. This is specific to form and content of the summary of rights and obligations which can be updated by the Secretary of State.

    Are you sure s21A is in force?

    Jeffrey, please help!
    No I am not confusing this at all! So let me restate.

    The summary is an example of a regulation, it is made under section 21B. None have been made under Section 21 ( no a b or 1's in brackets).

    The wording "the SoS shall" was as posted, as explanation to your question about regulations and SI- it regularly appears; section 21b (2) is an instance of that....

    As to your question
    Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
    Are you sure s21 allows for regulations to be made?
    Quote "Service charge information Section 21

    (1)The appropriate national authority may make regulations about the provision, by landlords of dwellings to each tenant by whom service charges are payable, of information about service charges.

    (2)The regulations must, subject to any exceptions provided for in the regulations, require the landlord to provide information about—"

    and for the remaining 10 (x) regulation is mentioned 7 times......"

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholder001
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
    The legislation allows for secondary legislation in the form of statutory instruments, which in turn can appear in the form of regulations; See the wording " form and manner" in the Act and the general statement in legislation after an enabling Act "the SoS shall make regulations ..."
    You appear to be confusing s21B(2) with s21. This is specific to form and content of the summary of rights and obligations which can be updated by the Secretary of State.

    Are you sure s21A is in force?

    Jeffrey, please help!

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholdanswers
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholder001 View Post
    Thanks Jeffrey & Leaseholdanswers



    Are you sure s21 allows for regulations to be made? The proposed s21 referes to regulations but the "in force" s21 doesn't appear to.
    The legislation allows for secondary legislation in the form of statutory instruments, which in turn can appear in the form of regulations; See the wording " form and manner" in the Act and the general statement in legislation after an enabling Act "the SoS shall make regulations ..."

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholder001
    replied
    Thanks Jeffrey & Leaseholdanswers

    Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
    Section 21 allows for regulations to be made. Section 21A allows you to withold service charge if a regulation ( or any of the rather nebulous reports form information etc to which it refers) is made and it is not complied with.
    Are you sure s21 allows for regulations to be made? The proposed s21 referes to regulations but the "in force" s21 doesn't appear to.

    Leave a comment:


  • leaseholdanswers
    replied
    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
    Don't you mean only that s.21A is in force so far as enabling regulations to be made but not otherwise?
    Section 21 allows for regulations to be made. Section 21A allows you to withold service charge if a regulation ( or any of the rather nebulous reports form information etc to which it refers) is made and it is not complied with.

    It is however intended for reforms that may or may not happen, even beyond the yet to be commenced sections of the CLRA 2002.

    Just a muddle of an Act- ticked the box of the manifesto promise to reform leasehold for the voters. I need a cyncial emoticon....

    Leave a comment:

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