My garages are demised to adjoining house- sue lessees?

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  • dominic
    replied
    Originally posted by dominic View Post
    What about this logic:

    18. Meaning of “service charge” and “relevant costs”.

    (1) In the following provisions of this Act “service charge” means an amount payable by a tenant of a dwelling as part of or in addition to the rent:
    (a) which is payable, directly or indirectly, for services, repairs, maintenance or insurance or the landlord’s costs of management, and
    (b) the whole or part of which varies or may vary according to the relevant costs.

    So the test is:

    a. Is the house together with the garage a dwelling under the LTA 1985?(there is no requirement in the definition that these have to be under the same title, or indeed that if more than one title, all titles must be a leasehold interest. The garage simply has to "belong to the house" or be "usually enjoyed by it"). Yes

    b. Is there a service charge payable in realtion to that dwelling? Yes

    c. Is that service charge payable by a tenant of that dwelling? Yes.
    Jeffrey - you're right. Point c does not pass.

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  • dominic
    replied
    What about this logic:

    18. Meaning of “service charge” and “relevant costs”.

    (1) In the following provisions of this Act “service charge” means an amount payable by a tenant of a dwelling as part of or in addition to the rent:
    (a) which is payable, directly or indirectly, for services, repairs, maintenance or insurance or the landlord’s costs of management, and
    (b) the whole or part of which varies or may vary according to the relevant costs.

    So the test is:

    a. Is the house together with the garage a dwelling under the LTA 1985?(there is no requirement in the definition that these have to be under the same title, or indeed that if more than one title, all titles must be a leasehold interest. The garage simply has to "belong to the house" or be "usually enjoyed by it"). Yes

    b. Is there a service charge payable in realtion to that dwelling? Yes

    c. Is that service charge payable by a tenant of that dwelling? Yes.
    Last edited by dominic; 09-07-2009, 14:37 PM. Reason: for sense.

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by dominic View Post
    Where in the LTA 1985 or elsewhere is this pre-supposition?
    It follows from logic.
    Let A = residence and B = appurtenaces.
    Dwelling = A together with any B.
    So dwelling can be:
    i. A on its own; or
    ii. A + B.
    Dwelling cannot be B on its own.
    Proof: what if A (residence) were to be freehold? Where then stands your argument?

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  • dominic
    replied
    Where in the LTA 1985 or elsewhere is this pre-supposition?

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by dominic View Post
    “dwelling” means a building or part of a building occupied or intended to be occupied as a separate dwelling together with any yard, garden, outhouses and appurtenances belonging to it or usually enjoyed with it;

    My emphasis added.
    I agree. "Dwelling" means either a building or part-building, with or without appurtenances. However, this pre-supposes that T has a lease of dwelling with garage. He doesn't, here- only a lease of garage. No matter what you say, a garage isn't a dwelling.

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  • dominic
    replied
    This is fun by the way

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  • dominic
    replied
    No.

    “dwelling” means a building or part of a building occupied or intended to be occupied as a separate dwelling together with any yard, garden, outhouses and appurtenances belonging to it or usually enjoyed with it;

    My emphasis added.

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by dominic View Post
    In real terms yes, but not according to the definition of of "dwelling" under the LTA 1985.
    Still no! "Dwelling" is the lessee's house elsewhere.
    The garage is not a building or part of a building occupied or intended to be occupied as a separate dwelling.

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  • dominic
    replied
    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
    No. The 'house' for this purpose is the separate house where lives the lessee of the garage.
    In real terms yes, but not according to the definition of of "dwelling" under the LTA 1985.

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    No. The 'house' for this purpose is the separate house where lives the lessee of the garage.

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  • dominic
    replied
    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
    Garage has a different reversioner from house, in any case- so how could garage's reversioner be bound?
    There is no such restriction in the definition of dwelling in the LTA 1985.

    Garage's reversioner is bound to the provisions of the LTA 1985 because (assuming my argument is correct for a moment) the garage forms part of a dwelling notwithstanding that part of that dwelling is owned freehold (the house) and part leasehold.

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    Garage has a different reversioner from house, in any case- so how could garage's reversioner be bound?

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  • dominic
    replied
    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
    No. Here, the service charge is payable:
    a. for a garage; and
    b. unde a lease of only a garage.
    It's not a dwelling, so s.20C cannot apply.
    We can argue all day... but if I was acting for the lessee in this instant, my argument would definitely be that the garage (which is usually enjoyed with the house) together with the house comprises the "dwelling". i.e. the garage forms part of a dwelling.

    But... I agree whether this argument is teneble is another matter.
    Last edited by dominic; 09-07-2009, 12:00 PM. Reason: typos

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  • jeffrey
    replied
    Originally posted by dominic View Post
    There is an argument that the "dwelling" comprises:

    a. the non-leased house; and
    b. the garages belonging (under a lease) to it "or usually enjoyed with it".

    Service charges are payable therefore in relation to that dwelling, and accordingly s.20C applies.
    No. Here, the service charge is payable:
    a. for a garage; and
    b. unde a lease of only a garage.
    It's not a dwelling, so s.20C cannot apply.

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  • dominic
    replied
    Originally posted by bristoluk View Post
    LOL - you chaps can discuss your issue all you like BUT, my question has nothing to do with tenants/landlords.

    It has everything to do with tenants/landlords!

    You, as freeholder of the garages, are the landlord to the lessee or tenant of the garages!

    lessee/tenant is used interchangeably in legislation.

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