Freeholder's consent and fee to sublet leasehold flat

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    http://www.landstribunal.gov.uk/judg...6-102-2011.pdf

    while the flat is a residential lease, the exception applies to leases for the erection of a building, as explained in the thread by myself and if I recall Lawcruncher.

    At the time of the amendment building or ground leases were quiet common, a large landed estate would grant a lease of a area which the builder would then build flats which then were mostly rented but in London landed estates, were slowly selling leases.

    I agree that some landlords exploit the situation to generate fees rather than use the clause for its intended purpose.
    Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

    Comment


      Thanks for that.Just read the appeal and I just can't grasp it.On the one hand he's saying that you've lost the case and then at the end he's asking for the parties to come back to him within 21 days for further submissions on what a reasonable amount is? What is that all about?
      How could the Tribunal from your first hearing get it so wrong? You must be gutted (and the rest of us)
      This permission to sublet is now a really big issue with owners of flats and it needs to be sorted!
      Can you keep us posted?

      Comment


        Originally posted by AUSSIE JOE View Post
        Thanks for that.Just read the appeal and I just can't grasp it.On the one hand he's saying that you've lost the case and then at the end he's asking for the parties to come back to him within 21 days for further submissions on what a reasonable amount is? What is that all about?
        How could the Tribunal from your first hearing get it so wrong? You must be gutted (and the rest of us)
        This permission to sublet is now a really big issue with owners of flats and it needs to be sorted!
        Can you keep us posted?
        Well first off it's a case of them winning the appeal that the LVT were wrong, that a fee is due, and in the absence of the matter being covered in the LVT case ( obviously) they reserved submission for what the reasonable amount should be.

        Secondly a reading of S 19 at first glance appears to exclude leases over 40 years, however the amendment goes back to the late 1920's and it was understood then and the distinction has been lost to time.
        I am more stunned that the landlord's representative did not immediately correct them.... its not uncommon to have to explain even basic matters to an LVT, like what a balance sheet is!

        Frankly the issue is sorted as long as the lease contains a cause for notification and/or consent, leaseholders have no choice but to comply, but can challenge the fees at the LVT. Simples


        Where is some cases the landlord/agent treats it as consent when it is simply notification and refuses to respond or react the lessee should ask for costs up to £500 as a competent landlord/agent should at least read the lease first, and definitely if they refuse to accept the lessee pointing out the error and proceeding to LVT.
        Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

        Comment


          Just heard from the LVT.They seemed to be sympathetic with my case because I relied on you decision and the others and at the time when I filed I didn't know there was an appeal.So will wait from your appeal what they decide is a reasonable appeal.On the bright side, they were saying that in my particular Lease there was no provision to charge to register a notice of subletting so in other words the £85.00 that I have paid to them is a fraudulent demand which is a very serious charge and I will be pursuing this.(can anybody advise?). Not only that I received a demand last week for a six monthly registration fee of£47.50 for the same tenant!!Show me where it says anything about that in the Lease? The company I am referring to is E&M management (of course)and my Lessee is Proxima GR (of course).

          Comment


            Should be "reasonable fee"

            Comment


              Originally posted by AUSSIE JOE View Post
              So will wait from your appeal what they decide is a reasonable appeal.On the bright side, they were saying that in my particular Lease there was no provision to charge to register a notice of subletting so in other words the £85.00 that I have paid to them is a fraudulent demand which is a very serious charge and I will be pursuing this.(can anybody advise?).
              1 The initial case gave an indication

              2 You need to post the Notice clause in the lease in order to comment, lease may have commonalities but the clauses are not standard.

              Hint scan and convert to text.
              Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

              Comment


                The Tribunal said that there is no mention of subletting in paragraph 7 of the fourth schedule to the Lease and had the Tribunal jurisdiction it would have concluded that the Lease does not provide for such a fee to be payable.
                Paragraph 7 of the 4th schedule says The Lessee shall wihin 28 days of the date of every assignment grant of probate or administration assent transfer mortgage charge discharge order of court or other event or document relating to the term(except a mortgage effected simultaneously with either the grant of this lease or any subsequent assignment)give notice thereof in writing to the lessor and pay to it a fee for registration calculated at the rate of 0.1% of the notice value of the demised premises and in the case of a document produce a certified copy of it to the lessor for registration with notice .

                Comment


                  If that is your lease's wording and you are letting the whole, "transfer" needs notice. Sorry.
                  Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                  Comment


                    Registration (for reasonable fee) of underlease of the property

                    Hi all,

                    I am new to the forum and have read with interest all the posts on this thread. I still have a query relating to the particular wording on my lease for which I should be very grateful for a reply please.

                    The agents for my freeholder are the infamous Freehold Managers (Nominees) Limited and in 2009, they sent me a letter asking for a fee for
                    retrospective consent to let my property. I checked the terms of my lease and didn't find such a requirement in it. In the meantime, the managing agents for my property held an AGM and in the minutes that followed said that no fee for consent to let was required and that myself and others like myself should ignore the request (which I did).

                    Yesterday, I received a letter from FM asking for a fee of £108 including VAT as payment for Notice of Registration of the fact that I am sub-letting the property.

                    I have checked my lease and found the following paragraph therein:

                    Within one calendar month after any such document or instrument as is hereinafter mentioned shall be executed or shall operate or take effect or purport to operate of take effect to produce to the Lessor's solicitors either the original or a certified copy of every assignment transfer mortgage or legal charge of this Lease and also every underlease of the Property for substantially the whole of the unexpired term and every assignment of such underlease and also any probate letters of administration order of court or other such instrument effecting or evidencing a devolution of title as regards the term hereby granted or any such underlease as aforesaid for the purpose of registration and for such registration to pay a reasonable fee being not less than Thirty Five pounds (£35) (plus VAT) in respect of each document or instrument so produced.

                    My question is this: Am I correct in thinking that I have no obligation to register the underlease as it is 'not for substantially the whole of the unexpired term'? My headlease started in 2005 for a term of 125 years and my current underlease is on an AST basis for a fixed term of 18 months.

                    All replies will be gratefully received.

                    With thanks,
                    Nimmi

                    Comment


                      It's pretty clear "transfer" is relevant to a subletting for a term of over 6 months..Sorry
                      Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by sysfix View Post
                        What's the latest regarding this E&M situation.
                        I sent my first letter off and received back...

                        A copy of my lease with highlighted text under 25.1 and 27.
                        I also received a letter (copy) from Peverel OM stating "We confirm we have appointed your company - Estates and Management LTD to deal with sublet consent matters on behalf of OM Property Management Limited"

                        They want £190 (£95 for initial consent and £95 for registration of the first tenant) or the money for a global licence.
                        I had to smile at that - same paragraphs, same figures, just another variation of the same group - E&M acting for Wengold.

                        Three things I would like advice on: the lease specifically refers to "the Management Company". Initially I dealt with one PMC, for ground rent, service charges et al. I received permission to underlet years ago from this company "the freeholder is not enforcing the requirement". Then we split out to E&M for ground rent, and a new PMC Labyrinth (part of the same group) for service charge, etc. Is the distinction between the agents of the freeholder who collect ground rent, and the property management company a material factor? Stroof's post (para b) on page 52 suggests so, James reply sheds no light on that aspect.

                        Also I have found an LTV (2009)decision in my area ruling that reasonable costs are much lower than E&M's demands, [B]and that there is no requirement for a six monthly payment because the AST runs on[B]. E&M have already asserted that the fees are reasonable using a London LTV finding. My inclination is to offer the 2009 LTV's reasonable costs, let them reject that and then go to LTV. Is that a reasonable COA? From all I have read they will not accept the lower payment...so is it worth the hassle.

                        In that case should I go for service charge or admin charge? The 2009 LTV did not get hung up on this, have the subsequent rulings made a difference?

                        Finally I have seen comments about the charge no longer being enforceable if a ground rent payment is made: I confess that I have not followed that logic, can any one explain?

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by The Sarge View Post
                          I had to smile at that - same paragraphs, same figures, just another variation of the same group - E&M acting for Wengold.

                          Three things I would like advice on: the lease specifically refers to "the Management Company". Initially I dealt with one PMC, for ground rent, service charges et al. I received permission to underlet years ago from this company "the freeholder is not enforcing the requirement". Then we split out to E&M for ground rent, and a new PMC Labyrinth (part of the same group) for service charge, etc. Is the distinction between the agents of the freeholder who collect ground rent, and the property management company a material factor? Stroof's post (para b) on page 52 suggests so, James reply sheds no light on that aspect. I tried to get the LVT interested in this. They weren't.

                          Also I have found an LTV (2009)decision in my area ruling that reasonable costs are much lower than E&M's demands, [B]and that there is no requirement for a six monthly payment because the AST runs on[B]. E&M have already asserted that the fees are reasonable using a London LTV finding. My inclination is to offer the 2009 LTV's reasonable costs, let them reject that and then go to LTV. Is that a reasonable COA? From all I have read they will not accept the lower payment...so is it worth the hassle.I guess it depends how much you value your own time. It certainly is not worth doing if you are only keeping the flat a year or two. I never intend to sell mine, so would have to pay these stupid fees every year for the rest of my life.

                          In that case should I go for service charge or admin charge? The 2009 LTV did not get hung up on this, have the subsequent rulings made a difference?That depends on what your lease asks for. If it only asks for notice, you need to go for service charge. If it asks for consent, go for admin charge

                          Finally I have seen comments about the charge no longer being enforceable if a ground rent payment is made: I confess that I have not followed that logic, can any one explain?Have a look at this: http://www.newsontheblock.com/the-le...briefing.thtml
                          Regards
                          James
                          To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
                            It's pretty clear "transfer" is relevant to a subletting for a term of over 6 months..Sorry
                            It says transfer of the lease. The lease is not transferred for an AST.

                            Once again, you have two choices, either pay up or go to the LVT for a determination. Your management firm is fighting for its life and will not listen to any argument you care to make to them on this subject.
                            To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                            Comment


                              James,

                              TY that's really useful, it's good to deal with someone who's been through the mill. Shame about the building lease decision.

                              In terms of is it worth it I was really referring to a strategy of offer then LTV. Or just straight to LTV.

                              This is definitely long term.

                              It is consent - so admin charge, happy. And I guess I can then add the registration charge within that and see where I get to.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by The Sarge View Post
                                James,

                                TY that's really useful, it's good to deal with someone who's been through the mill. Shame about the building lease decision.Thanks.

                                In terms of is it worth it I was really referring to a strategy of offer then LTV. Or just straight to LTV.It may get you a few brownie points with the LVT if you show you tried to compromise.

                                This is definitely long term.

                                It is consent - so admin charge, happy. And I guess I can then add the registration charge within that and see where I get to.Correct.
                                Regards
                                James
                                To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                                Comment

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