Section 20 costs

[lampshade]

It occurs to me and others that there us no responsible person. How can work so important be neglected for over 2 years and all thagt has happened is that leaseholders have been made to pay £000s each, for work that has not been carried out....


I and other leaseholders, are pretty convinced that some of the work deemed necessary is in fact not necessary at all, maybe a small amount
of updating, for example Fire certified door hinges and overhead closers installed, but not new flat doors (if not damaged).

Given the time since the FRA and subsequent quotes for work, for sure there will be additional monies requested by the MA.

Would I be in order to demand a new FRA, a scrapping of the existing section 20 on the grounds of unreasonable delay?

Of course it should be noted that given, according to the FRA, there are considerable failings of Fire Regulations.
So presumably if a fire was to break out and cause damage that the building insurance would be invalid.

[vmart]

The responsible person decides when to carry out FRA so if they choose to carry them out annually they are permitted to. Legislation only requires that there is a FRA. There does not need to be any changes for a new FRA to be undertaken but if there are changes since the last FRA a new assessment should be conducted.

From your comments the responsible person undertakes FRA every two years which is not unreasonable and may be the period recommended din the FRA report. Have you seen a copy of this? If not, you could request a copy of the report.

[lampshade]

Well thats interesting. Considering an FRA was done in 2018 and all works recommended in that report was done, why would another FRA have been carried out in 2020?? Nothing changed at all.
The only thing that did change in between 2018 and 2020 was a new MA was appointed by the FH (with no reason or explanation given).
The new MA had not visited the building at that time, and the FH was the MA prior to that. There were no changes in legislation as far as I know.

[vmart]

There is no requirement for a Fire Risk Assessment (FRAs) to be carried out every two years. This will be a decision for the responsible person that would likely act upon the recommendation of the assessor. A new assessment will be required when changes are implemented irrespective of the time lapse since FRA's are risk based not linked to a specific time period.

I suspect there are issues with the process used for the s.20 based on your description.

[lampshade]

eagle2,

Here we are, now 2 years since the FRA was done indicating that a lot of work was needed in order to comply. Original quotes fro the work received 18 months ago, flat door inspections done 18 months ago, no report ever given to leaseholders. Amended Section 20 issued in Oct 2020, with more work apparently needed (cross corridor doors that were made to comply 3 years ago following previous FRA, but now apparently no good at all and complete replacements needed at huge costs. Final section 20 invoices issued in Nov 2021. Then more delays due to ` discrepancies in the second door inspection`, no explanation other than that given. Now yet a further 6 months has passed, with no work having been started, or even suggested. All monies paid to MA back in Jan this year........
I have contacted the FH to inform them that their building failed an FRA back in 2020, and as yest, other than collect money, nothing has happened, and now, by Law, a further FRA should be done in June of this year..... what is the point of an FRA if nothing is done??

[lampshade]

Thnks. One of the biggest issues in my mind is that we are not party to the management contract between the FH and this new company. The Freeholder too the Managing away from the company that had done it since the flats were new and gave it, to themselves (120 miles away) they were pretty useless, eg....works required by FRA in 2011, never done for example, gardens that ended up as wasteland with 2mt high weeds (in the centre of a town).
I would almost wonder if anyone that has bought one of these flats since 2011 would have a case for paying nothing regarding this latest FRA as all of the work now required is the same as it was back in 2011???
Surely it should have been illegal to sell a property that did not comply with Fire regulations??? Some of this work now required is to remedy ORIGINAL building work of 30 years ago. And I do not see any change in the laws since then that deem it necessary now but not back then

[eagle2]

I suggest you ask the MA to reduce its charges as it is not providing a full service, that should produce a response. Also suggest that you say that you refuse to pay any increase in the cost due to their delay in starting the works.

[lampshade]

Update on situation............nothing at all. MA does not even answer emails now........saying offices are short staff due to Covid (same as was in December)...No contract issued, and in fact I found out that one new leaseholder has not even received an invoice for this new work. In which case the MA will never have 100% funds to issue a contract.(and they are not chasing one)....in the meantime the work demanded by the FRA of 18 months ago still has not been done. Is our insurance still vaild???

[lampshade]

If the MA can collect contributions in instalments, it has a choice of negotiating the payment terms under the contract, borrowing monies if permitted by the lease or the freeholder may need to finance the difference, The freeholder is not permitted to postpone urgent works.

I will put all of those points to the MA. To me this is simply not acceptable. Either this work is needed or it is not. Now 16 months since the last FRA was done, and of course there will be another one needed in 2022. Again I have already asked about warranty of any work done on this section 20, because the current one requires some work deemed necessary to fix badly done work from the previous FRA .
This is now driving some landlords to sell up (if they can)

[lampshade]

You can demand to see the quotations, which should be provided under S20 consultations..

Hi.....when I asked to see the quotations I was very specific in asking to see (on letter headed paper) the 2 quotes, giving full details of materials (doors ) to be used. That was not provided, instead I was sent a 78 page spreadsheet, done by the MA which made very little sense at all.
For example, there was no indication as to the type of new doors that would be fitted ( clearly that should have been known, it mentions similar to), that of course can give a very different cost.
The company that I had nominated detailed the exact doors they would use, giving clarity of both design and cost (at the time).but this information was not made available to everyone, only those that asked the questions.
For others it was a `fait a complis`, just a simple one company is cheaper than the other and so recommended,despite the fact that the cheaper company was quoting for doors that would then need painting !!!! Other company had quoted veneered doors !!!
All sounds to me as if the recommended company had been decided upon in advance, my nomination simply provided a base line.

[eagle2]

If the MA can collect contributions in instalments, it has a choice of negotiating the payment terms under the contract, borrowing monies if permitted by the lease or the freeholder may need to finance the difference, The freeholder is not permitted to postpone urgent works.

[Gordon999]

You can demand to see the quotations, which should be provided under S20 consultations..

[lampshade]

The managing agent should show you 3 competitive quotations for the work..

I had already asked why there were only ever 2 companies asked to quote? No reply.
Considering one of the companies asked was My nominated company.......(it would appear will not be getting the job )

[lampshade]

eagle2,

There has already been a revised quote, considering the work identified under the FRA is now over a year old. In addition extra work has been added to the original section 20. (Cross corridor Fire doors to all be replaced, which was not originally mentioned on he FRA), in addition costs prices have increased sharply over that period.
What can a MA do to ensure all payments are made, for example, if a leaseholder does not have the money and offers to pay a monthly sum over 12 months?? Does the work get held up for that period? what happens to costs, what about Insurance on a building where there are outstanding repairs deemed necessary by a FRA?

Reserve fund........Exactly, also my beef on this.
As I understand it there was a considerable reserve fund 15 years ago for these flats, which was all used up when new PVC windows were installed. (many £10s thousands) and that would have been fair enough. At around that time the building was bought by a new Freeholder, who for whatever reason stopped the collection of a reserve fund. Also at the same time a residents association that existed was disbandoned as leaseholders sold one by one, in their place came absent landlords, apparently with little regard for the buildings. So to that end normal wear and tear items including Fire safety has been largely ignored, until recent events has suddenly galvanised the Freeholder and their new MA into these works,
Anyone unlucky enough to be holding a lease is now having to pay.
I have asked the MA to provide me with their budget for next year, so the inclusion of a Reserve fund can be considered, but I fear that the extra costs with tis section 20 have not yet been fully realised, and that a reserve fund would be out of the question at the moment...

[Gordon999]

The managing agent should show you 3 competitive quotations for the work..