Flat entrance door - fire door compliance

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  • doobrey
    replied
    I would be inclined to push back on the flat doors if I were you (all of them, not just yours - since any work is at your cost). If they are including LH's property in the S20 then first question might be whether that makes any sense, and what would give them any rights over that property.

    If your situation is anything like mine the legal situation seems fairly clear. Consult your lease first, though, in case there is a clause which gives them a right to do something to your door.

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  • lampshade
    replied
    Hi
    Yes your tale mirrors mine in so far as the start is concerned......this is a new managing agency, and so far apart from an increase in Managing fees alone rising from £5700pa (34 flats) to over £10,000pa the first year, this managing company has done nothing at all. They just seem keen to get involved with protecting the freeholder. We still pay for a redundant Fire Alarm system at a cost of £3000pa in weekly testing and bi annual maintanance.and yet our gardens have weeds at 1.80 mtrs tall, which hey do nothing about.
    But most of not all leaseholders appear to put up with all of this (mind you 80% of flats are now rented out)......sign of the times...
    I would simply sell up, but the position of the flat is perfect for me, esp as I age.

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  • doobrey
    replied
    Freeholder has no rights over your door unless provided by the lease. Combining works to communal areas and leaseholders' demised property seems tricky.

    See related saga. I would draw attention particularly to my posts #4 and #19 in that thread, but much of it seems relevant to your situation.

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  • lampshade
    replied
    Originally posted by doobrey View Post
    The doors, then, are surely not within the scope of a section 20? They are not the freeholder's jurisdiction.
    But they must be up to the required standard and will incorporated in the whole works at same time
    I am guessing that the reason they have not sent individual reports to leaseholders is so they have no time to get any failed doors fixed and that the company that does the section 20, will then quote to replace the doors !!!!!

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  • lampshade
    replied
    Section 20 issued was very unclear.......all about remedial work to correct bad workmanship carried out 2 years ago after previous FRA., and address any Flat front doors that `failed` the Fire door assessment (paid for separate to the FRA !!)
    Only prob being that no one was informed in writing as to whether their door passed or failed the test !!!
    I just happen to use my loaf in these instances and so asked to see the report for my door (I knew it was rubbish as I was not there when the check was done), but its showed that it failed as they leaned against the door !!!!!
    Other leaseholders have doors with no overhead closer, no Fire rated hinges, and yet were told that their door was OK by the chap doing the report!!
    The FRA was done 12 months ago, the Fire door assessment done 10 months ago.still nothing finalized.
    I have asked why we are no having to spend more money to repair work that was done in 2018......who checked the work before payment was made in 2018.
    Answer.........................we were not the managing agents at the time. ( new appointment at start of 2020) not our problem.
    What a joke this is.....not,as it costs every time

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  • doobrey
    replied
    The doors, then, are surely not within the scope of a section 20? They are not the freeholder's jurisdiction.

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  • lampshade
    replied
    We do.......internal and front

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  • doobrey
    replied
    Originally posted by lampshade View Post
    Now a section 20 has been issued, which just talks about remedial work to be carried out, necessitated by the FRA, including doors
    Who owns the flat doors?

    FYI: Related saga.

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  • lampshade
    replied
    front-door-plug.jpg Had wondered for some time what the 1cm diameter metal plugs were in all internal doors (they all have one on the edge and there is a plastic central insert coloured blue. All doors except bathroom,All internal (again except bathroom) have Perko chains and fire strips in frames.
    So I was pretty sure, that the original spec. had Fire protection.
    So I looked at the entrance door (which I had been told by the Fire door inspector was not a fire door) and under the paint on one edge was a small 1cm indent.....scrapping paint off that and `voila`, the same metal plug withe insert. Checked on line and this plus is the method of identifying an FD 30 door, back in the 80/90s, when the flats were built.
    Took photos and sent to the fire door inspector, and he confirmed the door is a FD30 door, and it just needs new Fire rated hinges and a top closer.
    Fitted the top door closer, simple. (But no better than the original Perko chain), either will close the door over the Yale lock.
    Just now gotta find a chippy to replace the original hinges to these new HUGE think hinges...cost so far £25.00

    But would have been so easy just to let them put in a new door at £200+

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  • MrSoffit
    replied
    Ps. meant to say we have low rise "low risk" blocks with no communal plant, machinery, commercial tenure etc. Not homes for the bewildered. Just general needs living off small hallways. Risk management is situational. Large blocks or mixed tenure etc might require experts to inspect the doors but the cost of remediation of the doors is per the lease.

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  • MrSoffit
    replied
    Whether flat entrance door is a general service charge cost is in the lease -or should be. You have to read everything.The description of the demise will provide facts. The description of "Maintained Parts" of the block(s) will give more facts. The landlord's/lessor's expenses list will provide more facts. Even the lessee covenants. In our case as in many the doors are demised to the lessee and the maintained parts merely covers painting the exterior surface. The maintenance of the door itself -including its standard- is for the lessee to pay. This is well covered in the 2011 purpose built blocks of flats guidelines (appendices) where managing agents are advised to refer the uncooperative lessee to enforcement authorities. The LGA 2011 guidelines were reissued in 2021 but presumable there will be an update this year for the new Act.

    In our case the front doors are older 1980s type - notional fire doors - and I have since had written guidance from an expert that a 'competent' handyman armed with a checklist could inspect these doors and a managing agent should be competent to act for the landlord who is the RP.

    My guess is that agents are looking at fire risk assessments as risk aversion issues for themselves. It will be interesting what the new guidelines say. It looks to me that the management industry is moving to risk aversion rather than risk assessment. That is, risk aversion for the agent.

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  • lampshade
    replied
    Originally posted by MrSoffit View Post
    Hi. Inspecting flat entrance doors has been a requirement since the 2005 Fire safety Order. The role of managing agents to inspect front doors is covered in appendices to the 2011 guidelines.

    Should a managing agent have in-house expertise to carry out door inspections (required by an external expert fire risk assessment) or is it reasonable for the managing agent to claim the landlord company must employ external contractors? Bearing in mind the modern standard is to inspect flat entrance doors every six months.

    Thank you.
    An FRA was done in our block of flats last year. Various items were highlighted as in need of repair (these were actually to redo badly done work required by the previous FRA 2 years earlier), in addition despite a sample door being accepted, as OK the FRA suggested an independent Fire Door inspection be carried out .
    That was done in October last year. I presume a report, by flat, was done. However no leaseholder has ever seen a report for their flat.
    Now a section 20 has been issued, which just talks about remedial work to be carried out, necessitated by the FRA, including doors
    Can this possibly be acceptable given that we do not know if it failed or passed the test, and would it be appropriate for me, as a leaseholder, to pay for the replacement of a door to another flat, that had failed the test, when mine passed. (monies would come out of general service charges)
    I would have assumed that the condition of a flat front door was the specific responsibility of the leaseholder of a failed flat door, especially if it had been rented out, and damaged.
    This could become expensive if a Door inspection is required by law every 6 months. Fire safety is now the biggest single expense (except for the management fees).....

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  • scot22
    replied
    I was not aware of time specifications for the assessments.
    I also think it would have been prudent to have S20. In addition it gives more involvement to leaseholders.

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  • jrsteeve
    replied
    Best practice is for the agent to appoint an external contractor to conduct an FRA and formal risk assessments. Checking for obvious damage to apartment doors would be completed during a standard site inspection by the agent. Any significant damage should then be followed up by a contractor assessment of the door and quote to remedy of need be.

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  • MrSoffit
    started a topic Flat entrance door - fire door compliance

    Flat entrance door - fire door compliance

    Hi. Inspecting flat entrance doors has been a requirement since the 2005 Fire safety Order. The role of managing agents to inspect front doors is covered in appendices to the 2011 guidelines.

    Should a managing agent have in-house expertise to carry out door inspections (required by an external expert fire risk assessment) or is it reasonable for the managing agent to claim the landlord company must employ external contractors? Bearing in mind the modern standard is to inspect flat entrance doors every six months.

    Thank you.

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