ICO Letter Right to manage company

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  • ifallelsefails
    replied
    You raise valid points ram with regards to changeover of the company leadership.

    With regards to emails; emails are always stored in your mailbox, either indefinitely (if you use the now commonplace IMAP protocol or the email provider's webmail to read your emails) or until you download them (if you use the POP protocol to read your emails). Either way, there is a period of time in which the server administrators of/for the email provider (or a hacker) also can get access to your emails, along with the email logs of the messages sent and received. It is for this reason that the email provider is a "data processor" for you and it is necessary for a "data processing agreement" to be contractually signed with the email provider to do their bit to keep your data private, under GDPR.

    I understand that ram has setup their emails in such a way (by the sounds of things using POP), so that they are trying to mitigate these issues. I therefore just wanted to explain the above in detail for the benefit of other readers, because everyone has different situations and circumstances to consider.

    Leave a comment:


  • ram
    replied
    Originally posted by Section20z View Post
    Love the idea of printing every email and putting them in a filing cabinet and deleting original. Lol.
    I will have to change my footer to "Help kill the planet - please print this email"
    And how do you hand over all documentation to a new company secretary when Co. Sec changes hands in an R.M.C. or R.T.M. company ?
    Give them your computer ?
    Not having my computer or hard disk.
    Will the Directors of an R.M.C or R.T.M. company pay for a dedicated computer only for company business, AND a back up disk as well ?
    Usual answer will be -- no way.

    You have a filing cabinet, sectioned into the various flats, companies house, Solicitors on company only matters, Directors meetings, Directors minutes. directors past and present proposals for maintenence. Letters to Listed buildings control on matters.
    And all double cross referenced to the various flats where applicable.

    You print every email and letter for filing.

    Otherwise when a hand over occurs, what do you do ?
    Well, you have to give them your password, and say - 10 years of emails in there. sort it out yourselves ?
    Dont forget that other directors / Co. Sec will have sent out emails as well for quotes, questions, even replies to a leaseholder who lives next door and asked one on the directors something, which is not that important but don't expect directors to send the Co.Sec EVERY email they wrote ( but they must,) so it can be filed as a record, -- you want those too.

    Saying - here is the computer disk with all the emails on it - sort it out yourself. Or is on an ISP server, go collate them yourself ! AND you do not store email on the ISP server. You automatically download them on to your email program on your computer.
    No having to acces the isp email program, just open email on computer, click receive new mail, and in they come.
    You can set it up to delete emails from the ISP and then just stored on your computer. No one but you can access them.

    Just food for thought

    Anyway - must get some work dont.


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  • ifallelsefails
    replied
    Thank you for coming back to report your findings ram.

    Originally posted by ram View Post
    emails are are printed and put in their respective folders in a filing cabinet ( which you should do anyway ) then emails deleted,
    I'm afraid that the GDPR also encompasses email communications. Your email provider is a "data processor" for you and you therefore require a "data processing agreement" in place with them.
    The actual Legislation on exemptions to the ICO fee is here:
    The Data Protection (Charges and Information) Regulations 2018 (legislation.gov.uk)
    Schedule (2)(a) states:
    The processing is—

    (a)of personal data which is not being processed wholly or partly by automated means or recorded with the intention that it should be processed wholly or partly by automated means;
    So receiving an email, printing it and then deleting it would still fall into processing it wholly or partly by automated means.
    As you are attempting to be "paper only", you would need to cease using email and revert to using hand written notes and postal mail for your communications. Having thought about it, I think that you could still use a telephone, providing it is a simple telephone (eg. not a smartphone that uploads people's data to the cloud) and you are not running a telephone system in-house yourself, but using a telephone provider (which I believe is what the intention of the ICO Registration Self-assessment toolkit's question is about "call logging and recording systems").

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  • Section20z
    replied
    Love the idea of printing every email and putting them in a filing cabinet and deleting original. Lol.
    I will have to change my footer to "Help kill the planet - please print this email"

    Leave a comment:


  • ram
    replied
    P.S. It's a £ 4000 fine if you don't pay, meaning ( probably ) if you have not filled in the inline form they will tell you by letter ( probably ) that they are about to fine you as you should be paying, have not filled in the on line form, but if you fill in the form and pay, they will not fine you if you complete the form.

    I filled in the online form, and am not required to pay the fee, due to above previous post conditions.

    i've read the "actions" of the ICO, and its to make money, but also mainly to stop companires sending unsolicited commercial email ( which has it's own laws to prevent and fine without YOU paying any money.) contary to the customers requirements not to receive "offers". and mainly not offers directly associated with the services the customer signed up for.

    Amex, ( American express credit card ) were fined £ 90,000 for sending out email flyers not connected with the services which the custemers were enroled in - but just offers about downloading an app to check things.

    Freeholders are not going to email leaseholders, offers of special offers, buy one get one free. eetc etc.








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  • ram
    replied
    ALL Property Management Companies have to pay the fee. even if you don't use a computer; according to ICO.org.uk.

    Why have I changed my mind ?

    Cos I spoke to ICO, who did not accept my arguments, that even if I stored leaseholders basic information not on a computer, but on a piece of paper on my desk, a fee is still payable they said, which to me is stupid.

    I stated its just a record on a text document. They then said, well you have bank accounts of your leasholders which can be traced. No we don't I stated. Leaseholders pay into a bank account and we have no records of leaseholders bank accounts ( we issue credits for overpayments, and not cash )

    therefore if leaseholder info is just stored on paper files, emails are are printed and put in their respective folders in a filing cabinet ( which you should do anyway ) then emails deleted, then in my mind - no computer records how ever sparten are kept, then no fee is payable.

    My records will now be on paper and not on a computer. and will be on one sheet. and not paying a fee, a fee for which gives me no protection from anything or anyone.

    So up to you what you do. But if remember, it's a £ 4000 fine if you don't pay.
    Another rip off.


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  • ifallelsefails
    replied
    Originally posted by ram View Post
    Yes Shareholder information is stored on 2 computers, but those are records of names , addresses and phone numbers only, and no sensitive info.
    GDPR encompasses, names, addresses and phone numbers (as someone can identify the shareholders using that information) and you are storing this information on a computer. So I'm afraid that you are misinformed - you have to comply with the GDPR and because you are storing it on a computer, you have to pay a fee.

    Leave a comment:


  • ram
    replied
    I have just stated to ico.org.uk this month that 1 new leasehold properties will not be paying a fee, and that Nature of business (SIC)

    • 98000 - Residents property management
    do not have customers,. only shareholders who do not buy and sell products. Do not have websites or terminals that allow outsiders to access data of customers ( And we don't have customers ).
    Yes Shareholder information is stored on 2 computers, but those are records of names , addresses and phone numbers only, and no sensitive info.
    We are not a retail business either.

    So no, no fee is payable.

    Same with an other I manage ( Co. Sec )


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  • eagle2
    replied
    Taken from the ICO website

    Organisations that do not process personal information on a computer are exempt. You therefore do not have to pay a fee to the ICO

    Leave a comment:


  • jpkeates
    replied
    Pretty much everyone keeps personal data electronically, it's whether it's done so for the purposes of your business.

    Your mobile phone keeps lists of numbers called and who have called you, and people usually use a contacts app to identify them.
    That's an organised database stored electronically.

    Leave a comment:


  • Section20z
    replied
    I would just pay the £35 and be done, it's no great hardship.
    I can't imagine in 2021 the OP keeps no electronic data.
    What happens if there is an emergency ? Do you send out letters by snail mail to say there's water flooding through the ceiling ??

    Leave a comment:


  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by ifallelsefails View Post
    I see that, yes, which I am surprised about, given that the GDPR applies to (or to be) "organised" paper records. I am imagining that your paper records are not disorganised and therefore do fall under the GDPR.
    I have also had the same confusion.

    But the ICO guidance online is (I haven't checked today, to be fair) quite clear and they don't require registration unless you keep electronic records.

    Leave a comment:


  • skidder
    replied
    I'll give them a call. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

    Leave a comment:


  • ifallelsefails
    replied
    I see that, yes, which I am surprised about, given that the GDPR applies to (or to be) "organised" paper records. I am imagining that your paper records are not disorganised and therefore do fall under the GDPR.

    Please have a read of this solicitor's blog (which I just pulled from a google search): https://www.bclplaw.com/en-GB/insigh...pply-to-1.html

    Given that you have been sent a letter from the ICO, personally, I would telephone the ICO to clarify the position and take it from there. Try and be explicit about the explanation of your exact data storage circumstances to them.
    I would be interested to know the outcome.
    Last edited by ifallelsefails; 02-06-2021, 21:53 PM. Reason: Inserted: "I would be interested to know the outcome."

    Leave a comment:


  • skidder
    replied
    Thank you for the reply.

    Well the one of the main questions on the site was 'do we store electronic records' and if we didn't it sent me to the no need to register area.

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:

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