Permission to let problems

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Macromia
    replied
    Originally posted by Gordon999 View Post
    According to the dictionary, "underlet" means letting below market value whilst "sublet" mean letting to another person.
    Originally posted by Gordon999 View Post
    Lay persons have to rely on the meaning of "underlet" as in the dictionary.

    The lease does not state that "underlet" is the same meaning as "sublet".
    You would be extremely unlikely to get very far if you tried to use arguments of this sort in a court or tribunal.

    Firstly because, if the legal definition of a word is accepted as potentially being different from the way the word is used by 'lay persons', lay persons are expected to know the legal usage if they challenge the meaning in a court or tribunal.

    Secondly, in this example at least, it is very easy to find a dictionary definition that says that "underlet" can have the same meaning as "sublet". In fact, the first three dictionary links I clicked on include this definition:
    1. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...h/underletting
    2. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/underletting
    3. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/underlet

    Leave a comment:


  • sid1956
    replied
    It's clearly easier to argue that a simple registration charge is too high, than a variable admin charge.

    Leave a comment:


  • sid1956
    replied
    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post

    They are certainly going to quote it. There is often an opportunity to distinguish
    Do you think there is any mileage in distinguishing a "registration fee" from a "variable administration charge". The Lease provides for a registration fee (£45 or higher) - the amount is disputed. Landlord is claiming that the inflated charge is a "registration fee" whereas the decisions quoted (e.g. Piatti) allow a "variable administration charge" - which the Landlord has not claimed (although Piatti indicates he could). In effect I think the Landlord is claiming an admin charge but calling it a registration fee. Does this help my case at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by sid1956 View Post

    But won't Landlords quote it and future Tribunals use it as precedent? In other words isn't it the default position now until challenged again by a higher court?
    They are certainly going to quote it. There is often an opportunity to distinguish

    Leave a comment:


  • sid1956
    replied
    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post

    Not sure I am very happy with it.
    But won't Landlords quote it and future Tribunals use it as precedent? In other words isn't it the default position now until challenged again by a higher court?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gordon999
    replied
    Originally posted by sid1956 View Post
    Thanks Gordon - technically you are right although Underlease and Sub-Lease are apparently synonymous. It seems clear that in the lease "underlet" means "sublet". I wouldn't want to have to argue against this interpretation at Tribunal.

    The £50 registration fee is in a different clause mentioned earlier in this thread.
    Lay persons have to rely on the meaning of "underlet" as in the dictionary.

    The lease does not state that "underlet" is the same meaning as "sublet".

    £230 + VAT is not a figure stated in the lease .

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by sid1956 View Post

    Thanks Lawcruncher. What do you think of the Freehold Managers Nominees Ltd. and Piatti (2012) Appeal?. This seems to have ruled that a "variable administration charge" can be made by the Landlord even if not provided for in the Lease, as long as it is based on reasonable costs incurred. The Upper Court decided £165 was reasonable and payable even though the Lease made no provision for such a charge.
    Not sure I am very happy with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by Gordon999 View Post
    According to the dictionary, "underlet" means letting below market value whilst "sublet" mean letting to another person.
    In an alienation clause "underlet" means "sublet".

    Leave a comment:


  • sid1956
    replied
    Thanks Gordon - technically you are right although Underlease and Sub-Lease are apparently synonymous. It seems clear that in the lease "underlet" means "sublet". I wouldn't want to have to argue against this interpretation at Tribunal.

    The £50 registration fee is in a different clause mentioned earlier in this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • sid1956
    replied
    Thanks Lawcruncher. What do you think of the Freehold Managers Nominees Ltd. and Piatti (2012) Appeal?. This seems to have ruled that a "variable administration charge" can be made by the Landlord even if not provided for in the Lease, as long as it is based on reasonable costs incurred. The Upper Court decided £165 was reasonable and payable even though the Lease made no provision for such a charge.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gordon999
    replied
    Originally posted by sid1956 View Post
    From the Lease:

    Tenant covenants:

    Not to transfer assign or underlet the Property as a whole:-
    without the prior written consent of the Landlord such consent not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed
    According to the dictionary, "underlet" means letting below market value whilst "sublet" mean letting to another person.

    This covenant does not require you to pay a registration fee. Also the covenant wording does not require you to serve notice of sublet.

    Take Lawcruncher's advice: Resist all unreasonable demands which are not stated in the wording of the covenant including £230 + VAT. which is not in the covenant. .

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    That is a standard clause, except that it is a perhaps a bit unusual to require consent for the assignment of a long residential lease. Since consent must not be unreasonably withheld section 19 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1927 applies and no premium can be charged for granting consent.

    No way can they make you sign the underletting agreement.

    Stand firm and resist all unreasonable demands. Be bloody, bold and resolute!

    Leave a comment:


  • sid1956
    replied
    From the Lease:

    Tenant covenants:

    Not to transfer assign or underlet the Property as a whole:-
    without the prior written consent of the Landlord such consent not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by sid1956 View Post
    The Lessee covenants with the Landlord etc
    This is the agreement they want you to sign?

    What I would like to see is the clause in the lease relating to underletting.

    Leave a comment:


  • sid1956
    replied
    The Lessee covenants with the Landlord

    EXECUTED COPIES. The Lessee agrees to provide a copy of the Tenancy Agreement within 7 business days of its execution date. Copies of all relevant tenancy documents and any other associated documents must be provided by the Lessee to the Landlord on each subletting.

    SUBLET FEE. Notice of sublet is required to be served on the Landlord by the Lessee within one month of every new sub tenancy agreement being completed, together with the relevant registration fee of £230 + VAT.

    The subletting is subject to the Lessee ensuring the responsibility for their Sub-tenant's good neighborliness. Should we receive any complaints from other Lessee’s or tenants in the estate we will have no option but to request for the subletting to be terminated. Any complaints, nuisance, immoral, illegal behavior, unauthorized alterations and any other breach of restrictions contained in the Original Lease will also result with us requesting for the subletting to be terminated.

    Any and all sub-tenants shall be required to conform and fully comply with all obligations and covenants of the Lessee as set forth in the above-described Original Lease, all provisions of said Original Lease remaining in full force and effect for the entire term of the subletting. The subletting must comply in full with all the Lessee’s obligations of the existing lease.

    The Lessee further covenants with the Landlord that on any further assignment or subletting of the whole of the Premises it will procure from the assignee and the sub-tenant a signed agreement with the Landlord on the same terms as this agreement.

    INDEMNITY Under this Agreement, The Lessee shall fully indemnify the Landlord and its agents against all liabilities, costs, expenses, damages and losses suffered or incurred by the Landlord arising out of or in connection with any breach of the above terms including any legal or any other associated fees howsoever occurring as a result of the subletting. The Landlord reserves the right to pursue all legal remedies available in the event of the Lessee’s breach of the Original Lease and this agreement.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Activity

Collapse

Working...
X