Communal water to flat in block - definition of "hot" water in terms of temperature

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    Communal water to flat in block - definition of "hot" water in terms of temperature

    Hello all, – is there a definition of the temperature of “hot” water for the purpose of consumption in a residential property from hot water taps.

    For context, I own the leasehold to a flat in a building which has a communal boiler providing hot water to all the flats. This is for the purpose of providing hot water to the taps/bathroom (hot water for heating is provided by a boiler inside the flat).

    According to the lease, the lessor (freeholder) is required to "provide and maintain a good sufficient and constant supply of hot and cold water to the Building … and to remedy any mechanical breakdown in the hot water”.

    In the winter months the “hot” water, temperature is sub 25 degrees Celsius, not hot enough for having a shower/bath etc.

    I have raised this with the management company and have had a “we can’t do anything because lots of people are using it”, “install your own boiler if you want hot water”.

    My next step is to go back with what I would expect to be the temperature - hence my question.

    Appreciate any help - thanks in advance.

    #2
    I've heard of communal hot water closed systems as in [2014] UKUT 0026(LC) which involve a communal boiler supplying a primary HW system in each flat that heats water in a secondary system that the occupier draws off, being metered in each flat by a switch meter that measurs how much hot water is drawn into the flat.

    If what you mean is a communal boiler located who knows where is directly supplying hot water that the occupier runs off, its hardly likely (to me as a common citizen anyway) that all that pipe run, even if well insulated, could contain hot enough water by the time it reaches even the middle of the run. The flats at the earlier stage might be able to cook lobsters, mind.

    Just checked my own newish combi boiler and it supplies hot water between 40-60 degrees centigrade. I have to wait for the pipe to draw any cool stuff, but that's a few metres at most.

    All well and good the managing agent telling you to fit your own CH/HW boiler, but what if the lease requires you to pay for the communal HW boiler's repairs? If flats already have CH boilers, presumably they all have outer walls for the flue? All it needs is for the LL to put in writing that you have prior consent to fit a CH/HW boiler and won't be charged for the communal one in future, no?

    Is this a council landlord with a multi-block communal system designed before small combi boilers were invented and mixed tenure occupation? I guess social tenants won't be expected to buy new boilers.
    Do not read my offerings, based purely on my research or experience as a lessee, as legal advice. If you need legal advice please see a solicitor.

    Comment


      #3
      The system you describe is dangerous. Try environmental health. Ask to see the building landlord's Legionella risk assessment. The temperature in the pipe should be 55 +.

      Comment


        #4
        Hi again, just in case you do have a primary/secondary HW system and not a direct supply to your taps - sounds a bit weird that to me - why not buy one of those water thermometer gadgets, that you attach to the pipe by a spring, and test the temp coming in? You might have a furred up HW tank that needs replacing.
        Do not read my offerings, based purely on my research or experience as a lessee, as legal advice. If you need legal advice please see a solicitor.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by MrSoffit View Post
          I've heard of communal hot water closed systems as in [2014] UKUT 0026(LC) which involve a communal boiler supplying a primary HW system in each flat that heats water in a secondary system that the occupier draws off, being metered in each flat by a switch meter that measurs how much hot water is drawn into the flat.

          If what you mean is a communal boiler located who knows where is directly supplying hot water that the occupier runs off, its hardly likely (to me as a common citizen anyway) that all that pipe run, even if well insulated, could contain hot enough water by the time it reaches even the middle of the run. The flats at the earlier stage might be able to cook lobsters, mind.

          Just checked my own newish combi boiler and it supplies hot water between 40-60 degrees centigrade. I have to wait for the pipe to draw any cool stuff, but that's a few metres at most.

          All well and good the managing agent telling you to fit your own CH/HW boiler, but what if the lease requires you to pay for the communal HW boiler's repairs? If flats already have CH boilers, presumably they all have outer walls for the flue? All it needs is for the LL to put in writing that you have prior consent to fit a CH/HW boiler and won't be charged for the communal one in future, no?

          Is this a council landlord with a multi-block communal system designed before small combi boilers were invented and mixed tenure occupation? I guess social tenants won't be expected to buy new boilers.
          Thanks Mr Soffit
          - The system is the 2nd you describe - a boiler in the basement of the block feeding directly from boiler to flat with no intermittent tank (will double check this) - as you say, I'm not sure how it was ever intended to deliver hot water to the further away flats. The water temp in the summer is hot.
          - Thanks for the temp range
          - Good point re exiting existing obligations to pay for communal boiler repairs etc - would definitely do this if went down the combi boiler route (which some other leaseholders have done)
          - This is a private landlord, and it's a 1920's, so pre-dates combi boilers.
          - Is the gadget you're suggesting something like this https://ratemperaturesensors.co.uk/h...ase-2251-p.asp ? If I'm wrong and it is a primary/secondary system I will get one of these and do some tests

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by leaseholder64 View Post
            The system you describe is dangerous. Try environmental health. Ask to see the building landlord's Legionella risk assessment. The temperature in the pipe should be 55 +.
            thanks leaseholder64 - that's the temperature I would have expected. Is this documented as a standard anywhere? (will have a look on hse, let me know if you've come across it). Will try the environmental angle with the LL.

            Comment


              #7
              Residential landlords have to provide water hot enough to satisfy legionnaires disease regs.

              I expect same regs would apply.

              Comment


                #8
                I think block landlords need to do a formal risk assessment for this.

                I believe the danger range is 20 to 45 degrees.

                Comment


                  #10
                  I would be worried that scheming MAs would use this as another opportunity to screw money out of the leaseholders.

                  Comment


                    #11
                    I find this in hotels if I don't get up until 8.30. All the other guests have run off the hot water. Either get an electric shower installed or get up at 7am IIWY.

                    Comment


                      #12
                      Originally posted by south_fox View Post
                      Is the gadget you're suggesting something like this https://ratemperaturesensors.co.uk/h...ase-2251-p.asp ?
                      Looks impressive but gadget I've used is called "Clip On Hot Water Pipe Thermometer" available at all good retailers I believe. Cheaper than the gizmo you link to.
                      Do not read my offerings, based purely on my research or experience as a lessee, as legal advice. If you need legal advice please see a solicitor.

                      Comment

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