Tenant of Leaseholder leaving property in common parts

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  • Anna1985
    replied
    TheManOnTheBus , thank you. I still find it absolutely ridiculous that you need to go to solicitor to point out the bloody obvious

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  • TheManOnTheBus
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna1985 View Post
    TheManOnTheBus - how modest was the fee? Thanks
    Just short of £400 - but I set it out carefully for them so it was less than 2 hours work.

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  • eagle2
    replied
    Originally posted by TheManOnTheBus View Post
    Thanks for all comments (historical thread here which I have just stumbled across again!). In end we instructed solicitors and, for a modest fee, a "solicitors letter" (threatening application to a tribunal for a determination that the leaseholder was in breach of covenant, potentially leading to a s146 LPA notice, and potentially ultimately leading to forfeiture!) did the trick. Leaseholder then made sure the tenant behaved.
    Thanks for updating everyone

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  • Anna1985
    replied
    TheManOnTheBus - how modest was the fee? Thanks

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  • TheManOnTheBus
    replied
    Thanks for all comments (historical thread here which I have just stumbled across again!). In end we instructed solicitors and, for a modest fee, a "solicitors letter" (threatening application to a tribunal for a determination that the leaseholder was in breach of covenant, potentially leading to a s146 LPA notice, and potentially ultimately leading to forfeiture!) did the trick. Leaseholder then made sure the tenant behaved.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
    The fact the goods, in this case, the bike, is on the property is enough to satisfy s12 1, c.
    I am not sure it is.

    Section 12 starts: "This section applies to goods in the possession or under the control of a bailee".

    There are four key words:

    "goods": Is the bike goods? Yes, because the Act defines goods as including all chattels personal other than things in action and money.

    "possession": Is the landlord in possession of the bike? "Possession" is a very wide word and a bit of a slippery concept. I am having difficulty seeing how the landlord can be in possession of the bike in any meaningful way if the bike owner has free use of the bike. The landlord has no proprietary interest in the bike nor is it in his custody.

    "control": Is the landlord in control of the bike? It is difficult to see how he is. Without removing the bike he cannot prevent the bike owner (and indeed others) from using it. He cannot take the bike away so as to have control of it because the Act gives him no power to do so. The control must exist before the section applies.

    "bailee": Is the landlord a bailee? I do not think so. The bike has not been given into the landlord's custody by the bike owner for the landlord to do work on it or look after it. The landlord cannot be an involuntary bailee because a bailment requires the bailee to have physical possession of the thing in question.

    However you look at it it seems that a condition for the section to apply is that the landlord must be exercising significant control over the bike.

    I am not saying there is no remedy in law, just that it looks like it is not available under section 12. The position is not though clear cut and I can see a County Court judge finding for the landlord, but it would be interesting to see what the Court of Appeal would make of the situtation.

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  • Jon66
    replied
    The fact the goods, in this case, the bike, is on the property is enough to satisfy s12 1, c.

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  • TheManOnTheBus
    replied
    Thank you very much everyone. A threat of bike removal (more seriously expressed than before) seems to have done the trick. (I hope it lasts...)
    Thanks

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  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by leaseholder64 View Post
    It's trespassing on their property.
    True, but is the bike is "in the possession or under the control of a bailee" as required by section 12 of Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977?

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  • leaseholder64
    replied
    It's trespassing on their property.

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  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
    Issue a tort notice and remove the bike when the time is up.
    Not sure if that is appropriate. The person issuing the notice needs to be in possession of or in control of the bike.

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  • leaseholder64
    replied
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/32

    Cost is the cost of the paper, the toner or ink and your time.

    If the bike is obstructing an escape route, you should move it to a nearby safe location, and notify that location to the owner.

    If you dispose of it, after they ignore the notice, you must handover the net proceeds of the sale, after storage costs and sale costs.

    However note that bicycles are serial numbered, and, even if you use the correct procedures, so you can't be accused of theft, any sale could be poisoned by reporting the cycle as stolen.

    You could threaten to forfeit the lease if you have such a clause in the lease. You could, presumably claim compensation for storage costs.

    Leave a comment:


  • scot22
    replied
    How and what is the cost please ?

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  • Jon66
    replied
    Issue a tort notice and remove the bike when the time is up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tenant of Leaseholder leaving property in common parts

    I own the freehold of a small building (and a couple of the leases). One of the other leaseholders as let to a tenant who despite warning will not remove property (bicycles / push chairs) from common parts.

    The leaseholder (and therefore their tenant) does not have the right under the lease to store property in the common parts.

    I believe therefore that I am entitled to remove the bicycle.

    This seems drastic although as warnings are not doing the trick I wonder if anyone else has come across this and how they have handled it.

    When I remove the (expensive!) bike, can I just sell it for whatever price I can get or what?

    I fear this will end in a slanging match. The tenant is unreasonable. The leaseholder refuses to enforce or control them.

    (presumably I could also threaten to "forfeit" the lease?)

    Any thoughts gratefully received.

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