Bedroom Keys in a HMO

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  • #31
    Originally posted by hunter View Post
    The occupiers each enjoy exclusive use of a bedroom but would share other facilities including a common living space.
    The bit in bold suggests that this is Readings PoV for houses with multiple individual tenancies, not joint tenancies which is what G&P has. It correlates with the other advice given.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
      The bit in bold suggests that this is Readings PoV for houses with multiple individual tenancies, not joint tenancies which is what G&P has. It correlates with the other advice given.
      No. They class the ones with individual tenancies as bedsits.

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      • #33
        'bedsits' is not a legal term. On a joint tenancy the individuals take a tenancy for the whole property. "The tenant", which may be 5 people, has exclusive use of the whole property, not just a bedroom.

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        • #34
          In response to Bel:

          I think we can agree to disagree. I am a landlord for many years. All my students are on joint tenancy agreements and all have a key to their individual room. I never had any problems. I provide accomodation to the top end of the student market - the ipod, itouch, i-everything crowd and I do understand that they prefer to lock their rooms and so would I.
          It has never been too much hassle or a burden to me and to provide a great "customer service" is on the top of my agenda. That includes understanding the wishes and needs of the customer (within limits).

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Snorkerz View Post
            'bedsits' is not a legal term. On a joint tenancy the individuals take a tenancy for the whole property. "The tenant", which may be 5 people, has exclusive use of the whole property, not just a bedroom.
            FYI

            www.reading.gov.uk/...team/14048/Fact-sheet-6-v01-11.pdf

            1. Accommodation comprising separate lettings, i.e. bedsits
            Houses, occupied as individual rooms where there is some exclusive occupation and some sharing of
            facilities (such as a kitchen or bathroom) and a common living room may be provided for person with
            no other permanent place of residence and each occupant or household lives independently of all
            others.

            2. Shared Houses
            Houses normally occupied by members of a defined social group, e.g. students or a group of young
            single adult friends. This standard will also normally apply to small scale lodgings. The occupiers
            each enjoy exclusive use of a bedroom but would share other facilities including a common living
            space. The anticipated duration of the occupancy will often be finite and occupiers may spend short
            periods away (e.g. vacations). Numbers of occupiers above 6 are more suggestive of a bedsit HMO.
            This standard is not intended to apply to purpose built student accommodation...

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            • #36
              Sadly, this is Reading BC's interpretation of the law. IMHO it is merely creating confusion as in statute a property is either a HMO or it isn't a HMO.

              In a 'Shared House' the agreement is between 'the landlord' who grants exclusive possession to 'the tenant'. As explained above, 'the tenant' may be multiple people, lets call them 'tenant a', 'tenant b', 'tenant c' and 'tenant d'. None of these people will have signed up for a specific room so far as the landlord is concerned. If 'tenant a' takes residence in the front bedroom, she is occupying a room that the other 3 tenants have joint tenancy of. Likewise she has joint tenancy of their bedrooms and the cupboard under the stairs where the mouse lives. In the real world, it would be her room and no-one would disturb her, but she does not have exclusive possession in legal terms.

              It is worth remembering that the landlords access rights are very limited, so if they wanted to grow their favourite plant then the landlord may not be granted access to admire it.

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              • #37
                From hunter's quoted extract from RBC's definitions:

                1. Accommodation comprising separate lettings, i.e. bedsits
                Houses, occupied as individual rooms where there is some exclusive occupation and some sharing of
                facilities (such as a kitchen or bathroom) and a common living room may be provided for person with
                no other permanent place of residence and each occupant or household lives independently of all
                others.

                This is a very confusing definition!

                First, because although (as Snorkerz points out) 'bedsit' has no precise legal meaning, it is generally understood to be a unit of living accommodation which is self-contained except for washing facilities, which are usually communal with other occupants of the same building. Separately-let rooms in HMOs may, or may not, be bedsits (it would depend on what facilities for cooking they contained).

                Second, I suspect the 'i.e' before bedsits should be an 'e.g.', so that bedsits are an example of separately let accommodation, but not the only type. Thus 'Houses...etc.' on the second line is another example (and not an amplification of what bedsits are, as the use of 'i.e' would suggest)).

                Whoever wrote the paragraph needs to brush upon his or her sentence construction and use of i.e./e.g.

                In the end I think we are arguing unnecessarily. Surely the situation relating to locks on bedroom doors in HMOs can be summarised thus:

                Separately let rooms should have locks.
                Bedrooms in joint tenancies may have locks, but they aren't a legal requirement. Where they are fitted, they must be openable without a key fromthe inside and they may render the tenants liable to buy individual TV licences rather than a joint one.
                'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by hunter View Post
                  In response to Bel:

                  I think we can agree to disagree. I am a landlord for many years. All my students are on joint tenancy agreements and all have a key to their individual room. I never had any problems. I provide accomodation to the top end of the student market - the ipod, itouch, i-everything crowd and I do understand that they prefer to lock their rooms and so would I.
                  It has never been too much hassle or a burden to me and to provide a great "customer service" is on the top of my agenda. That includes understanding the wishes and needs of the customer (within limits).
                  Great that you are a lovely landlord and have great tenants. you deserve them if you put in the extra.
                  If you chose your tenants carefully then you are unlikely to have problems.

                  I understand that some people may demand locks on doors. A wise landlord will always give tenants what the market demands to get consistant occupancy, within reason.

                  However, that is not the point. There are reasons why a LL may not want to provide them, which I have shown.

                  OP's LL may not be like you, and OP may also not be an ideal tenant (no offence!)

                  Just because you have not had problems does not mean that somebody who also has a "joint tenancy" with bedroom locks, will not have a problem, especially with a professional tenant who knows the game. If you are familiar with the Street vs Mountford case, you will know that what is written on a tenancy agreement does not necessarily matter, it's what happens in practice that counts. So if the tenants get a key to their room, a court could hold that they have a seperate tenancy.

                  An alternative would be to provide a lockable cupboard for valuables.
                  All posts in good faith, but do not rely on them

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                  • #39
                    http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Door_Lock.html
                    I'm a good tenant with great landlords
                    I'm also a living, breathing, fully cooked female.

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