Two Lodgers...looking for up to date info

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    Two Lodgers...looking for up to date info

    Hi everyone, this is a great site. I have a freehold property with three bedrooms and would like to rent two of them tow lodgers.
    We live in the London Borough of Croydon, which has an Article 4 direction removing the permitted development rights for change in use from C3 to C4.
    The house is three storeys.
    There will be no amendments to the house.
    I will live in the house with the two lodgers at all times.

    We contacted Croydon Council and obviously they said that this is an HMO and a license and planning is required, which is unlikely to be granted. The person was a bit "computer says no" and I am not sure they really knew.

    So looking at all of the posts, the Housing Act 2004 and the government guidance specifically excludes live in landlord plus two lodgers being an HMO. There are numerous council guidance notes from councils confirming this is the case, but I am unable to see if there has been any recent changes in the legislation or the dates of these notes.

    So the question is..
    Is this an HMO for the purposed of the Housing Act 2004.
    And is planning required to change it to C4?
    And is a license needed?

    If needed I can speak to an HMO specialist but wanted to know if anyone had a definitive answer on this?

    I was planning to write a note to the council explaining that they had got this wrong and refer to the legislation but wanted to see if I am right?

    Thanks.

    #2
    You are right and council is wrong. I would point them to the Housing Act Schedule 14, plus any of the numerous references that can be found online e.g. https://www.propertytribes.com/lodge...127636278.html. Owner-occupier with two lodgers is not an HMO.

    Assuming that the property has a gas supply, you will need a gas safety certificate.
    There is a fine line between irony and stupidity. If I say something absurd please assume that I am being facetious.

    Comment


      #3
      You need to locate the exact wording from the Croydon Council site - AFAIK many councils vary their rules so you have to accept the rules of your local council

      like here

      https://www.croydon.gov.uk/hmo

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by AaronL View Post
        So the question is..
        Is this an HMO for the purposed of the Housing Act 2004.
        And is planning required to change it to C4?
        And is a license needed?
        Do you own the property?

        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

        Comment


          #5
          Hi everyone.

          Propert is freehold and fully owned and occupied by the owner with plan for two lodgers.
          I have had confirmation from Croydon that it isn't an HMO for licensing purposes which is a start.
          So it is more about what planning class does it fall into...
          C3 or C4 as they will reject a C4 application.

          Here are some notes on it...
          Not sure if anyone has a definitive answer.

          In the Housing Act 2004 in Schedule 14…

          “Buildings which are not HMOs for purposes of this Act (excluding Part 1)”

          Buildings occupied by owners

          6(1)Any building which is occupied only by persons within the following paragraphs—

          (a)one or more persons who have, whether in the whole or any part of it, either the freehold estate or a leasehold interest granted for a term of more than 21 years;

          (b)any member of the household of such a person or persons;

          (c)no more than such number of other persons as is specified for the purposes of this paragraph in regulations made by the appropriate national authority.

          My view here is that other means other than the occupation by the owners.

          The national authority is outlined here

          The Licensing and Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation and Other Houses (Miscellaneous Provisions) (England) Regulations 2006 (legislation.gov.uk)

          Which says…

          Buildings that are not HMOs for the purposes of the Act (excluding Part 1)

          6.—(1) A building is of a description specified for the purposes of paragraph 3 of Schedule 14 to the Act (buildings regulated otherwise than under the Act which are not HMOs for purposes of the Act (excluding Part 1)) where its occupation is regulated by or under any of the enactments listed in Schedule 1.

          (2) The number of persons specified for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)© of Schedule 14 to the Act is two.

          So this leads me to believe that you can have owner+2 lodgers under the housing act which is why Croydon said I don't need a license.

          What I am unsure about is how this links with the planning classification. Does the planning legislation link back to the Housing Act for the planning classes do you know?

          I can find guidance from government from 2010 and from local authorities to about 2017 that say that owner + 2 lodgers is class c3 which indicates I do not need planning bit I can't find a new definitive answer.

          There were no changes to the planning legislation in the C3 class in September 2020 so I don't think anything has changed so owner + 2 lodgers should be fine?

          Comment


            #6
            You can have two other occupiers as the owner without creating an HMO.

            For planning purposes (specifically The Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) (Amendment) (England) Order 2010) the definition of an HMO excludes "a converted block of flats to which section 257 of the Housing Act 2004 applies but otherwise has the same meaning as in section 254 of the Housing Act 2004.”
            And so the same exception applies.

            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

            Comment


              #7
              Ooh I like that and recognise the reference but didn't pick it up in my research. I'll re google later but if you beat me to it where does it say "foe planning purposes...but otherwise has the same meaning as in section 254 of the Housing Act 2004".
              When I go back to Croydon I want to provide the refs in legislation.

              Comment

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