does annexe form large hmo?

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    does annexe form large hmo?

    Would a house on 2 levels, with 4 unrelated tenants sharing bathrooms & kitchen, and a 5th tenant in an annexe (with its own kitchen and bathroom) meet the criteria for a large licensable HMO, as of october 2018?

    I've google searched for gov websites but can't seem to locate the right info.

    Everything I've read seems to point to it not being a large HMO since the annexe is self contained, but experience tells me to air on the side of caution & double check. Does anyone have any concrete gov links with info pertaining to this, or have any personal experience in it?

    Thanks

    #2
    If it is self contained, does it have its own house number, council tax, utility bills, open entrance etc?

    As far as I am aware of you have an fully self contained annex renting out to a separate family unit, it counts separately for council tax purposes.
    In those cases from HMO prospective they count as different properties.

    However if they are considered as the same property, or if the annex dependents on the main house some way, i.e. annex can't shut off electricity or gas if there was an accident. Then they would be treated as HMO.

    I guess if you tell the council annex is part of the whole property, then you have to declare as HMO, but if you tell council annexe is fully self contained, then you are not eligible for HMO but are eligible for extra council tax.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by spiritdreams View Post
      If it is self contained, does it have its own house number, utility bills, open entrance etc?
      are you saying that would make it part of an large licensable HMO, or wouldn't?

      Comment


        #4
        Quote from Local Council Tax:


        If the VOA determines that your property contains more than 1 area of separate living accommodation, you may find you’re charged for more than one Council Tax band.

        The VOA is required by law to apply a separate Council Tax band to every:

        “building, or part of a building, which has been constructed or adapted for use as separate living accommodation”


        Only physical features are considered when deciding whether or not an additional area of living accommodation exists within a domestic property, not how it’s used. A separate Council Tax band is still required if an area of a house, flat or other domestic property which could be occupied separately is vacant.

        Accommodation occupied by tenants wouldn’t be treated as an annexe, but it would still have its own Council Tax band.

        Comment


          #5
          All I am saying is, if you are confident the annexe is truly self contained, then you can count the property as having 4 family units for purpose of HMO, however when you declare this, you would also then have to pay council tax for the Annexe.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by spiritdreams View Post
            Only physical features are considered when deciding whether or not an additional area of living accommodation exists within a domestic property, not how it’s used.
            So for council tax purposes, it's only the physical features that are considered (i.e. it must have a bathroom and kitchen).

            But for HMO purposes, it's mainly how it's used that is considered ("if 5 or more tenants share bathroom or kitchen facilities...").

            is that right?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by bobwilson54 View Post
              is that right?
              Spiritdreams hasn't replied because he isn't interested in clarifying your point, he only wants to tell you something negative so that he can have the feeling of asserting power.

              Comment


                #8
                Assuming annex is self-contained, there being no doors interconnecting, then aiui, there are are two separate dwellings in the building (similar to a small block of only 2 flats). The bigger one with 4 occupants is clearly a HMO. The annex - currently with only 1 occupant - is not currently a HMO: Depending on increase in occupants of annex it might become a HMO.
                I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by bobwilson54 View Post

                  So for council tax purposes, it's only the physical features that are considered (i.e. it must have a bathroom and kitchen).

                  But for HMO purposes, it's mainly how it's used that is considered ("if 5 or more tenants share bathroom or kitchen facilities...").

                  is that right?
                  People on this forum can be so negative, I am not on here 24/7

                  Sorry if that is not clear enough.

                  For HMO purposes if the annex is fully self contained and not dependent on the main building, then the people living in the annex would not be counted towards HMO. (i.e. 4 people in main house and 1 person in annexe would count as a 4 person building for HMO purposes.)

                  It is not dependent on whether they share kitchen or living space, but rather whether the annex can be considered a seperate living space (like a granny annexe for example. (I.e. if the annexe have a different main entrance, with it's own toilet and kitchen).

                  Assuming above is true, If 4 people in your main building is related and form a family, then the Extension of Mandatory HMO Oct 2018 would mean the property still does not require HMO, otherwise it would still require to be registered for HMO. (Also check whether your Local Authority have extend HMO Licensing terms)

                  So you are all good there, all I am making you aware of is, that by declaring it as 4 person dwelling with another self contained annex for HMO purposes, the council may turn around and ask for more council tax due to the property being classified as having two living space.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by cupcake78292 View Post

                    Spiritdreams hasn't replied because he isn't interested in clarifying your point, he only wants to tell you something negative so that he can have the feeling of asserting power.
                    Stop that nonsense now.
                    I also post as Mars_Mug when not moderating

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Assuming this is England ?

                      For council tax purposes an ;annexe; is a very specific definition which only makes a difference in certain circumstances - in real terms, even if it meets the definition of a council tax annexe, it still has it's own council tax band and there is no particular difference in how it would be treated when being let to tenants (It would be dealt with in the same way as any other banded dwelling).

                      The VOA will almost certainly want to band the 'annexe' for council tax purposes - as to the rest of the property it may or may not be more than one individual unit for council tax purposes, the VOA would need to assess them as well (although it sounds like it would be probably be regarded as one dwelling)

                      So for council tax purposes, it's only the physical features that are considered (i.e. it must have a bathroom and kitchen).
                      No, a 'self contained' unit or dwelling doesn't always have to have all facilities in order to be banded for council tax purposes. See section 6.4 here - http://cti.voa.gov.uk/corporate/publ...5.html#P73_796
                      Previously served 10 years as a council tax advisor with a local authority but now self-employed with my own council tax consultancy.

                      If your local authority disagrees with any aspects of your council tax claim, as they are free to do so, a Valuation Tribunal appeal may be required.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I think you got the wrong URL fragment and meant: http://cti.voa.gov.uk/corporate/publ...tml#P242_23463

                        Comment

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