Inheritance and wills

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    #46
    Well if they are saying the estate is worth no more than 325k then my uncle is an idiot if he thinks HMRC won't eventually find out. My sister seems to be in denial over the whole saga. If I hear nothing by Monday it's off to the solicitors I go. At least my mum agrees with me that something is not right. When my nan died the house was worth 600k and even in this current climate i'd say 800k on a bad day

    Comment


      #47
      I could be wrong about this, but so far, nothing you have described seems at all suspicious or even unusual.

      I am fairly certain that the estate no longer includes the house (which is the subject of a separate trust designed to remove it from the estate - probably for tax purposes). Someone's made a sensible decision about the estate to avoid paying 40% tax on the property value (which would otherwise have been more than £190,000).

      Probate will be signed off by a solicitor who isn't going to be lying to HMRC, there would have been a proper valuation of the property as part of the process of probate if it was in the estate.

      By removing the property from the estate, it is no longer subject to the provisions of the will.
      The executor can't have done that after the death of your grandfather, so it must have happened before, and your grandfather must have consented to it.


      The will seems to contemplate only one "son", did your mother remarry to create a new uncle to be the executor?
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #48
        I think this is the wrong forum for a complex trusts and estates question like this, but I'm not sure that the house is fully excluded from the value of the estate.

        It is a lifetime gift, subject to the PET seven year rule, and I seem to remember its being said that the seven years weren't up. Also, I can't remember if the deceased was still living in it, or obtaining rent from it, but in either case, there would have been a reservation of interest, so, if I remember correctly the seven year clock would not have started.

        I don't know how those reflect in the paperwork, but they could make IHT due.

        The reservation of interest exclusion might be avoided if market rent was being paid into the trust and taxed at the appropriate trust income rate.

        However I'm no real expert in these areas, and I would say that same is generally true on this forum.

        Comment


          #49
          It was my grandads house but this was my dads step dad. My grandad had no real contact with his 2 daughters from his previous marriage so when he died he left everything to my nan but left 20k to a grandson in the USA he had never meet this was about 2003. I remember one the daughters came over for his funeral wanting more money but from what I knew she got nothing. So my dad sorted out everything for his mum but I think because he was really sick and didn't know how much time he had left he made sure we would be looked after. So my dad only had one younger brother which is this uncle in question and my dad died in 2006. I was verbally told on more than one occasion that we would get our dads share when our nan passed away. I'd say my uncle moved into the house about 2005 and he was added to the deed 2014 roughly I remember him mentioning a trust but I didn't have a clue, I just thought well one day i'll get 25% of this house. I've looked into the 7 year thing and I think leasehold64 is right. Plus from little things my uncle has said like about 6 months or so ago he said I better switch the council tax to my name. The firm who wrote my nans will didn't say a lot but they said yes you and your sister are entitled to your nans estate. Now them,my accountant and the solicitor I spoke to last week all said 'Why do you need it in a trust if your over 21?' and if it is to avoid tax why is he not showing you paperwork. They just think its very suspicious. My sister is now on board so she is going to ask him today to email or post the details about the trust as we want to know so we can adjust our wills. She's going to ask about the house sale and she what tale he tells her. If its all above board then i'll accept it but at 36 years old I am not kid and I want to see what he has done as its in my best interest. If you had told me 10 years ago this old house in a right dodgy area of London would be worth almost 1mil I would of laughed.

          Comment


            #50
            This the answer my sister got from the guy handling the estate:
            I attach your grandmas will and I will try to explain the situation.

            XXXX has taken the loss of his mum very badly and clearly it has affected him.

            Several years ago your grandma made this will with a solicitor in London but XXXX could not locate it! Without it we had no idea who had the original.

            Had no will have been found then the law of intestacy would have applied. But the will was eventually located.
            This is where the delay in applying for probate occurred.
            XXXX as you may know lives at the same address and this has been classed as his main home since the split with his old partner.

            When I was first introduced to your grandma, it was clear that her wishes were that of protection for XXXX and that of her home. The property was valued and initially was in the region of £400-500k. at the time the property was below the threshold of the Nil rate band, as your Grandfathers demise allowed nan to utilise her and his allowances known as a transferable allowance by spousal transfer.

            As the property has previously been transferred to XXXX and your Grandma known as a Severance of Tenancy XXXX owned 50% and your Grandma the other remaining 50%.
            XXXX was initially going to live and remain at the house but sadly he no longer wishes to do so.

            As we all waited for the grant to issue, the situation is that you and your brother are entitled to the 50% of capital but NOT the property as that was transferred to XXXX in approximately 2013/ 2014.

            The trust remains confidential and is in place until XXXX wishes to break the trust and dispose of the assets within it.

            Clearly as the asset ( house passed to XXXX upon your grandmas demise via the Trust) this does not form part of the capital you and your brother will inherit.

            However that said I know XXXX wants to ensure that his late brothers family are not left out. Its XXXX decision but he wants to sell his property and settle any liabilities and when this occurs you and your brother will receive the capital value you are entitled to, less any capital or income tax.

            Hence not that simple.

            Should I still take action?

            Comment


              #51
              Is that actually written by a legal professional, it's barely literate?

              ​​​​​​
              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                Is that actually written by a legal professional, it's barely literate?

                ​​​​​​
                That's what my wife said. Looking him up he is the director of a will writing place. My sister then got this and seems to be getting told more info than me:
                The trust was made initially to protect her from losing the house if she went into care. But that is only 1 of the benefits.

                The trust makes a gift in life time. ( you can always make trusts in life time or by a will) but the issue by will is that it wont protect from local authority and sadly your grandma knew she was poorly.

                I will Dig out the values re the bank accounts but I believe this was around £24k. I have bank statements but promised XXXX that I would get the figure transferred to him as I don’t know this figure. We wrote to the bank today so that should be with us in around 7 days.

                Capital Gains tax is the enemy here, and that’s why we have been cautious as XXXX and the trust may get clobbered for the gain if he sells.

                That said he said he wants to get out and sort his living arrangements and forget the memories causing him a lot of anxiety.

                Trusts do have great benefits for bloodline planning. If you ask XXXX to text me confirmation to forward to you the Trust then I can follow his lead, but as this is confidential, I cant disclose this to you at this stage.

                Comment


                  #53
                  That person is no legal professional. Full stop.

                  However, I can basically see what he's trying to say, but there is one issue.
                  I can understand that the trust would work to protect the home if your grandmother needed to go into care, as local authorities have the power to sell a property to find the owners care. Which would mean it would be lost to the family altogether.

                  I don't think it was actually transferred 50%:50% (which would need to be tenants in common) as otherwise the 50% that your grandmother owned would be still in her estate when she died.
                  For it to operate as described the trust or your uncle would have had to have been joint owners with your grandmother, as that controls the inheritance (taking priority over the will).

                  The title ownership sounds like it's joint with your grandmother and your uncle, who have passed the beneficial ownership to the trust.

                  Other than the reason for the trust being to avoid losing the property in the event of your grandmother going into care, I think the situation is as I have been saying all along. The property isn't in your grandmother's estate and won't be in the will. So any division of the estate won't include the property.

                  The beneficiaries of the trust or the trustees can bring the trust to an end (although the trustees can only do that if there are no beneficiaries left, the purpose of the trust has ended [which it has] or to fulfil the purpose of the trust).

                  Your grandmother's estate sounds like its basically the contents of her bank accounts.

                  And not being able to find the will is a reasonable reason for the long probate.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Raiden328i View Post
                    XXXX could not locate [the will]. Without it we had no idea who had the original.

                    Had no will have been found then the law of intestacy would have applied.
                    By law, all wills have to be registered. You can apply to search this registry and this will tell you who has the original copy of the will. That might not give you access to the will (it could have been lost, for example) but it will tell you who is legally required to hold the original copy. It certainly won't leave you with "no idea."

                    Secondly, although it's correct you have to apply for probate under intestacy if "no will" is found, you can apply for probate even if you do not have a copy of the original will. If, for example, you have a photocopy, you can swear an affidavit that attests you have exhausted all avenues to locate the original and proceed on the basis of an undisputed copy.

                    I can personally attest that all these factors can greatly extend the period it takes to apply for probate, and I agree with the others that whoever is providing this "advice" is not competent to pursue this on your behalf.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Wills do not have toe be registered until after probate. There is a will registration service, affiliated to the Law Society, that claims to hold details of 7 million wills, and I imagine any solicitor would use it, but a DIY will will not be included.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Might be all legal but I think he is being greedy if he gets 100% of my nans house. He already has a big house in Walthamstow probably worth a stupid amount which he will get 50% of when his son is 18 and has to sell it. My dad his brother would of wanted us to get his share and use it wisely as he knew he probably wouldn't get to enjoy it. My uncle has kept quiet about this for years knowing he wanted it all to himself

                        Comment


                          #57
                          On the other hand, it was the choice of your grandmother as well as your uncle (he couldn't have done it on his own).
                          And, from what you wrote in your first post, you all seem to have been given documents to sign related to it.

                          I'm still confused about how the property title was owned.
                          If your grandmother and your uncle were (the only) joint tenants, your uncle now owns the property and nothing can be done about it by anyone but your uncle (or conceivably a court).
                          If it was owned as tenants in common, which I think you've said and your legal genius contact also implies, the part that was still owned by your grandmother is in the estate.

                          It's possible that the property was actually as tenants in common by your uncle and a lifetime trust for your grandmother. In which case the trust documents should say what the trust should do when the beneficiary(ies) die or change. Otherwise, it's up to the trustees (of which there have to be at least 2).
                          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                          Comment


                            #58
                            My sister asked the will writer to confirm if they were tenants in common and this was his answer:




                            Yes, but the trust notes your grandma signed gave her share to XXXX via the trust so he owned 100% (I don't get why the big secret?)

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Well, that would leave the property outside the estate (and out of scope for the will).
                              Leaving nothing for you to have a share of to inherit.

                              What happens to the property will be controlled by the trust.

                              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Well the saga continues and looks like I have my answer. Emailed the will writing firm who did the trust and said look no more BS I want the details on the trust now so I can update my will and plan my future. The guy replied that my uncle is the sole beneficiary of the trust and it was signed by my nan 7 years ago. So basically we get nothing and he has lied all this time

                                Comment

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