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    Epc

    Is it actually illegal not to have an EPC?

    #2
    Not if you are not selling or letting a residential property.



    Think trading standards can prosecute - not aware of that having been done.

    However operating as a landlord who clearly ignores & flouts the law does clearly invite the tenant to ignore & flout the law likewise. Is that the behaviour you would want?
    I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

    Comment


      #3
      If you have sold or let, or are selling or letting a property after October 2008, then it is a legal requirement ( with extremely limited exceptions) to have an EPC.
      Jane Needham

      Whilst the advice given is believed to be correct, I hold no liability for any actions taken on the basis of the advice.

      Comment


        #4
        Hi
        No i just think its red tape at its worst
        I have a property, i rent it out and i dont have an EPC
        What's so dangerous with not having an epc?
        What useful purpose does it serve?
        If its below a certain level, does it stop us from renting it out?
        The answer probably no
        I cant see a reason for it from here - please correct me if im wrong

        ps: note i didn say i'm not getting one, my friend can do it for £30 and it last 10 years - my point is the 'red tape' issue, which seems to have been rising in the past - although i must say this government is doing its best to reduce it going forward

        Comment


          #5
          We prefer to have people in UK who obey the law. Bit of a radical idea ....

          What else have you decided not to bother with .. gas safety cert.. safe electrics, permission to let, insurance, declaring you rental income to HMRC , licensing those HMOs, etc etc
          I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

          Comment


            #6
            I have everything else, to ensure it's a safe residence - thanks for your concern tho

            You havent answer my question my friend - please refer to my earlier thread, cut and paste here:

            What's so dangerous with not having an epc?
            What useful purpose does it serve?
            If its below a certain level, does it stop us from renting it out?

            I'm eagerly awaiting your response...

            Comment


              #7
              PN - surely these are questions you should be taking up with your MP?

              I would say the majority of forum members agree the EPC is a waste of time and money but some nerds out there might like to at them and they are a legal requirement - hence see your MP.

              On the bright side the cost is recoverable from HMRC



              Freedom at the point of zero............

              Comment


                #8
                Sigh!! You already have some of this information but since presumably it is not displaying on your device...herewith again, plus some more...

                Originally posted by peternicholas View Post
                ....

                What's so dangerous with not having an epc?
                a) Being prosecuted by council.
                b) Your would be seen by many to be clearly inviting the tenant to ignore & flout the law likewise. Is that the behaviour you would want? Could be very expensive & time-wasting: IMHO the main issue, but others may hold alternative views...
                c) Presumably (in theory, not sure if this has ever happened in court...) T on finding energy bills higher than expected decides to sue you for failing to provide EPC & failing in your duty of care & you lose £££££
                d) Your actions brand you an untrustworthy law-breaking *****ole & other tenants, agents decide not to do business with you, council withdraws your HMO licenses if any & landlord registration - which could make later eviction nigh on impossible...and disposal of portfolio when unplanned is unlikely to achieve expected returns of ££££
                e) If you have a God he might decide you've gone too far & it's the basement for you...


                What useful purpose does it serve?
                Beats me, although it was suggested (by government, I'm not condoning or supporting them..) that it would encourage green stuff & tree-hugging & better inform house buyers/renters...
                If its below a certain level, does it stop us from renting it out?
                AFAIK not currently, although I think government has talked about starting doing that - my own view being unlikely given the barking-mad and crazy housing shortage in this country already...

                There are no doubt other points I have not considered in answer to your questions...

                Just think, with all the time & effort wasted on this matter you probably could already hold that shiny EPC in your hand right now!!

                Cheers!
                Perhaps it's time to move this to TAB...
                I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Peter,

                  It's generally agreed that EPC's in their current form are virtually worthless.
                  We have them done because it is the (EU) law- albeit an unenforced one. It's not good policy, professionally or in private life, to pick and choose which ones you'd like to obey.

                  The idea behind EPC's is a good one, unfortunately in practice it hasn't worked for a number of reasons. However, it is putting a framework in place whereby one day, they might be of use.

                  If the 'Greendeal' hadn't been such a confusing disaster, it might have shown the potential for EPC's to be useful at some time in the future.

                  Also it is a job creation scheme, generating revenue for the government (via tax)- though I suppose the same could be said for paying someone to dig holes and then fill them back in again.

                  Another argument often trotted out is that it is all OK, as they only work out at 10 pence a week and it is all tax deductable. Having over a grands 'worth' of the useless things, every one of which could have been cut and pasted by a ten year old*, I don't subscribe to this way of thinking.

                  It is proposed that after April 2018, properties rated F or G will be unlawful to let out. Although there will have to be so many caveats and get out clauses that it will be effectively toothless but it gives an indication of the way things are going.

                  BTW, if you think £30 for an EPC is pointless red tape at its worst, you will be having kittens when landlord licensing comes in at £500 a pop.





                  *Perhaps with the exception of the one recommending setting up a windfarm in the 20 square metre back garden of a 2 bed semi- it takes many years of substance abuse to think that one up.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Like i said, i'm getting mine done for £30 for 10 years

                    Thank you boletus for siding with my thoughts: epcs being worthless
                    A quick check on google and no ones ever been prosecuted and lots of people think its a waste of time

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by boletus View Post
                      ,
                      BTW, if you think £30 for an EPC is pointless red tape at its worst, you will be having kittens when landlord licensing comes in at £500 a pop.
                      .
                      Agreed that EPC's are pointless, but landlord licencing may be of some use as there are some pretty bad ones out there who flout all the rules we abide by, and there are even more who don't know what the rules are. Same goes for Agents, not sure I'd be happy paying £500 for a licence though.....

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by peternicholas View Post
                        Like i said, i'm getting mine done for £30 for 10 years

                        Thank you boletus for siding with my thoughts: epcs being worthless
                        A quick check on google and no ones ever been prosecuted and lots of people think its a waste of time
                        Surely....
                        issued with a fixed penalty notice for non-compliance with the obligation
                        ??
                        I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Interesting - £500 penalty & possibility of £5k & criminal charge in Scotland...

                          Guys...

                          Found this the other day... it only applies in/to Scotland (where much development in LL legislation comes from..) & I do not know if there is/are similar regulations in Engerland...
                          http://www.bre.co.uk/epcscotland/page.jsp?id=1624
                          The recent publication "Direction as to the Provision of Energy Performance Certificates for Existing Buildings" confirms that the requirement to produce an energy performance certificate on the sale or rental of an existing non-residential building is subject to a criminal, as well as civil, enforcement regime in Scotland.
                          The Direction allows local authorities to serve a building regulations compliance notice on building owners who have failed to affix an EPC to a building when the building is sold or let. If building owners fail to comply with the notice they are guilty of an offence which is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale (currently £5000). The powers set out in the Direction are only intended to be used in the event that, following a civil penalty charge notice being issued to a building owner under the EPC Regulations, the owner continues to fail to produce an EPC
                          seems to be to do with section 17 of "The Energy Performance of Buildings (Scotland) Regulations 2008"
                          http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/20...lation/17/made

                          Penalty is £500 before getting to the criminal bit & the £5k possibility..

                          Cheers, Yours aye

                          Artful, Bonnie Scotland
                          I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Everyone thinks there worthless but yet still do them????? Amazingly people defending them saying they must be done? Complete madness, if there is no reason to do them why bother? Yes yes I have read the list but I have never heard of anyone being fined or took to court. There are no safety issues with these and I believe it is fine not to do them.

                            I mean really senior member if the government told you to stick your head down the toilet of each property to check for turds and the EU sanctioned it would you also do this?? Probably by the anger you express at people not doing EPC's!!

                            If you guys wanna burn money thats up to you but your reasoning was a joke. No tenant I haver met has ever even heard of an EPC and saying the fact a landlord is giving the tenant the ok to flout the law because they have is ridiculous. Thats a bit like saying the tenant was smoking the pot so this gave the landlord the green light to use the spare key and burgal the house!!!!!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by hech123 View Post
                              Everyone thinks there worthless but yet still do them????? Amazingly people defending them saying they must be done? Complete madness, if there is no reason to do them why bother? Yes yes I have read the list but I have never heard of anyone being fined or took to court. There are no safety issues with these and I believe it is fine not to do them.

                              I mean really senior member if the government told you to stick your head down the toilet of each property to check for turds and the EU sanctioned it would you also do this?? Probably by the anger you express at people not doing EPC's!!

                              If you guys wanna burn money thats up to you but your reasoning was a joke. No tenant I haver met has ever even heard of an EPC and saying the fact a landlord is giving the tenant the ok to flout the law because they have is ridiculous. Thats a bit like saying the tenant was smoking the pot so this gave the landlord the green light to use the spare key and burgal the house!!!!!
                              It is simply a legal requirement and professional landlords abide by the law. In a democracy, if you do not agree with a law you have the option of campaigning to change it; it is morally indefensible to pick and choose which laws you will obey. The result would be chaos.

                              There are good reasons (commercial as well as ecological) why LLs should ensure the EPCs for their properties are as good as they can be and why they should tell their prospective Ts about energy-efficient features of the property. Not to do so is just poor business sense.
                              'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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