"Govt to phase out gas by 2035"

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    "Govt to phase out gas by 2035"

    Story on the main site - presumably will apply to PRS before anyone else!

    Given that the only way to get an EPC to a 'C' at present (aim for 2025/8) is to have GCH how are we supposed to meet EPC targets without it? Retrofitting ASHP / GSHP to older properties won't work and nothing else seems to get the EPC rating up.

    Looks like the PRS will die in 2035

    #2
    Apararently they intend to substitute hydrogen for natural gas, which presumably they'll make by electrolysing water?

    Which of course will be far more energy efficient than just plugging in an electric heater?

    Comment


      #3
      So after paying 10k for solid wall insulation (stone houses) then they expect a further 15k for a ground source heat pump (figures may not be right, it's what they said in the article) . So that's no profit for 5 years. But we'll still be allowed to fly everywhere so the environment is only important when it isn't something they want to do...

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        #4
        Some of us can remember when we all converted our appliances in the late 60's/mid 70's from burning 'Town Gas' (coal gas) to burning 'Natural Gas' (methane) or North Sea gas as it was sometimes referred to, although there was also a big field in the Irish sea and Morcambe bay.

        Interstingly Whitehaven colliery was burning methane from the mine for lighting as early as 1727:
        http://www.nationalgasmuseum.org.uk/...ry-chronology/

        It was know in the 60's that the supply of Natural gas in our seas was limited and that we would have to change again at some time.
        New technologies have kept extraction going from fields that couldn't be exploited before, but it will run out at some point (although estimates vary wildly) so it's probably best to plan for that now.

        Like any other major change it's going to cost money, the question being who's going to have to pay.
        Well us of course, even if it's through taxes that the Gov. then uses.

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          #5
          I have posted on this before but to summarise: I build modern houses, the square box like things that other members have talked about! In 2025 (but maybe to be bought forward to ???) we will no longer be able to install gas boilers per the ones we have now ie traditional mains (Natural) gas.
          We have looked at the issue in great detail and it is likely that either: per Cadent's experimentation that Natural gas will be blended by means of adding hydrogen (40% mix) or that the mains will transfer to hydrogen only, or a transition period of blending then hydrogen only after some sort of delay imposed by government, once they realise that immediate transfer to electric only will not be possible. Hydrogen only mains supply is being trialled in Scotland somewhere (I cannot find where at the moment) and I do not know whether they are renewing all the mains infrastructure to do it. Certainly, as 'nukecad' has said above, should this be the case then all boilers, cookers and hobs will need to be replaced. This will certainly be cheaper than installing ASHPs (c£10,000 for the ASHP plus changes to the radiators etc). We looked at GSHP and these are much more expensive £15,000 and you really do need the right type of soil, nice river alluvial is best, certainly not chalk or stone as the heat will not transfer (unless is it under water).
          ASHP is not really good for flats as when the air handling unit defrosts water cascades of it and needs to go into guttering (which must not freeze) otherwise water will just soak the walls of the flat underneath. In the houses we shall be building we will put in ASHP in the first instance as probably these will pass the EPC required standards in the future. I have put one in my own house and the running cost of all the electric is about £2500 for the year so better than LPG or oil (we have no mains gas).
          I do wonder about whether LPG will continue as it is a bi-product of oil production and I guess that we shall still need oil production post 2025 so it may be better to change from mains gas to LPG (certainly cheaper to change a few jets and put a tank in the garden).
          So in summary my advice (for what it is worth) would be wait and see. I know that this may mean losing out on 'green' grants but it would mean that we can get past this Covid phase and then we can see what is the most efficient way to go (ASHP or hydrogen burner).

          Comment


            #6
            That's very informative. Looks like the light bulb scenario all over again, remove what works before you have a suitable alternative. The changeover looks like a nightmare though, unless they're putting new infrastructure in everyone in an area will have the same gas so will have to change at the same time. My school chemistry is a tad out of date but isn't hydrogen gas explosive and flammable so likely to be a safety issue?

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              #7
              Originally posted by royw View Post
              isn't hydrogen gas explosive and flammable so likely to be a safety issue?
              Yes, just like the current metane gas is explosive and flamable. - They wouldn't be much use as fuels if they didn't burn.

              Safety issue? That's (part of) why landlords have to get a GSC done every year.

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                #8
                What's stopping a normal boiler from burning hydrogen? Is it just the way the gas is delivered to the burner?

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                  #9
                  With hydrogen there has to be a system of valves otherwise the burning would go back up the pipe in a gigantic woomph!
                  The biggest bang for your buck in saving the planet is insulation. So much of Britain built sector is fairly traditional and will need to burn fossil fuels albeit less of it.

                  If we are typical of landlords we have pushed let dwellings up to B's Cs and Ds from Es Fs and Gs.

                  I have not yet scored an A but got fairly close to it. Has any reader scored an A with a flat? It's almost impossible! New extensions we are adding to houses and being fitted with triple glazing which is the new buzz word in the double glazing trade. (if you'll pardon the pun). it is however prohibitively expensive to retrofit as the frames would need changing to upgrade which would be a challenge - as the cavities, where they exist - are full of insulant.

                  There is however a long way to go yet in terms of insulation. Many commercial lettings have large windows and there is still a ton of work to do in improving heat loss through such expanses of glass with nano-coatings. Plate glass and other single glazing loses heat at triple the rate of a bit of walling.

                  I don't think gas boilers as a species are going to disappear any time soon. Would you vote for a political party who told you to remove your boiler?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Forgive me if I missed the article but has this 2025 deadline been confirmed in law yet? I think as discussed previously the only truly viable option is ASHPs but it's a huge leap in 4 years...

                    I assume the rules will allow a dwelling designed before the 'deadline' to be built to the standards of the time so suspect many of us will be building houses 2-3 years after the deadline so long as our design date falls before the deadline

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by SimonRW View Post
                      This will certainly be cheaper than installing ASHPs (c£10,000 for the ASHP plus changes to the radiators etc). .
                      This is an interesting point, are you considering UFH throughout to allow for the lower flow temperatures or over-sizing radiators?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        A bit off this topic, (maybe should be in one of the electric car charging point threads), but as we were talking above about hydrogen:

                        Hydrogen can also be used as a fuel for cars, without the long charging times associated with electric vehicles.
                        You can currently buy hydrogen powered vehicles in the UK, but filling them may be a problem if you don't live in certain areas.
                        The main problem up to now has been that lack of a Hydrogen distribution network, but it's technically no harder than delivering petrol to a petrol station, it just needs investment in different storage tanks and 'pumps'.
                        https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/f...el-cell-future

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dan_Manchester View Post
                          Forgive me if I missed the article but has this 2025 deadline been confirmed in law yet? I think as discussed previously the only truly viable option is ASHPs but it's a huge leap in 4 years...
                          2035, not 2025.
                          But that is only even a very vague suggestion in the 10 point plan.
                          https://www.gov.uk/government/public...volution/title

                          "We will go with the grain of behaviour, and set a clear path that sees the gradual move away from fossil fuel boilers over the next fifteen years as individuals replace their appliances and are offered a lower carbon, more efficient alternative"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by nukecad View Post
                            A bit off this topic, (maybe should be in one of the electric car charging point threads), but as we were talking above about hydrogen:

                            Hydrogen can also be used as a fuel for cars, without the long charging times associated with electric vehicles.
                            You can currently buy hydrogen powered vehicles in the UK, but filling them may be a problem if you don't live in certain areas.
                            The main problem up to now has been that lack of a Hydrogen distribution network, but it's technically no harder than delivering petrol to a petrol station, it just needs investment in different storage tanks and 'pumps'.
                            https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/f...el-cell-future
                            As oppose to the electricity distribution network that already goes to every home.
                            They are known as hydrogen fool cells for very good reason.... 😁

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Dan, underfloor heating is best for heat pumps but oversizing the radiators does work. Both ways are disruptive and of course expensive.
                              The hydrogen trial to be carried out in Scotland is in Leven mouth. It requires a dedicated wind turbine to power the water splitter which gives the hydrogen which is then stored in tanks so on windless days people will still have hydrogen supply. The idea to put everyone on ASHP is a bit daft as we shall need ten times the electricity we produce today and of course you cannot store electricity (well you can in battery banks) so we would all need to have turbines on our houses! Solar panels really do not produce in the winter months but are probably good enough in the summer when you don't need lots of electricity because you need no heating! Hence I think that hydrogen is the way forward in the longer term but ASHP is a sure bet from now to the medium term. And all housebuilders have been told that it is 2025 that gas will be a no no.

                              Comment

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