Unadopted private road- who owns, who maintains?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Unadopted private road- who owns, who maintains?

    Situation- various houses on private road. Private road has no clear ownership (deeds are apparently silent on the matter of who owns it). Repairs urgently needed to part of this road as part of the carriageway has collapsed.

    If responsibility is unclear, would 3rd party liability insurance cover an individual householder against claims from others (such as other householders or highways agancy/council)? Would insurance cover the householder if liability WAS established?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Miffy View Post
    Situation- various houses on private road. Private road has no clear ownership (deeds are apparently silent on the matter of who owns it). Repairs urgently needed to part of this road as part of the carriageway has collapsed.

    If responsibility is unclear, would 3rd party liability insurance cover an individual householder against claims from others (such as other householders or highways agancy/council)? Would insurance cover the householder if liability WAS established?
    Were the houses all built/developed/sold by the same developer/builder/owner at about the same time? Check that party's prior title deeds to see what land was originally acquired. Perhaps the road is within the acquisition- if so, it may have been retained by that party.
    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

    Comment


    • #3
      Apparently it dates back to before 1876 belonging to some Earl who's line has died out. Most of the houses are converted buildings from the original Hall (which is now also split into 2 houses).

      Only 7 deeds have been forthcoming, so it is possible that someone is not admitting to the road being "theirs" but enquiries at the Land registry have not revealed anything.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Miffy View Post
        Apparently it dates back to before 1876 belonging to some Earl who's line has died out. Most of the houses are converted buildings from the original Hall (which is now also split into 2 houses).

        Only 7 deeds have been forthcoming, so it is possible that someone is not admitting to the road being "theirs" but enquiries at the Land registry have not revealed anything.
        1. In which county is it? Special now-closed Deeds Registries may be available (but only in the pre-1974 Yorkshire or pre-1940 Middlesex).
        2. Try inspecting each house's deeds. Old Abstracts of Title should explain what the Earl previously acquired. Everything not sold-off must still be in his successors' hands.
        3. Why not contact a local archivist re who are the Earl's successors/beneficiaries?
        JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
        1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
        2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
        3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
        4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the ideas! I will suggest them to the residents association.

          At the moment the chairman is thinking of going for adverse possession over the road in the name of a trust he wants us all to set up.

          Trouble is, he wants to make us all liable to the trust in perpetuity for the costs etc but I am not keen on being subject to the dictat of the trust over matters such as how much expense to go to or indeed what the money should be expended upon. Figures being bandied about are in the region of 20 thousand (gulp!) per household-hence I was wondering if insurance might be a safety net. However, I guess the ins company will want to run for the hills if I approach them....

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Miffy View Post
            At the moment the chairman is thinking of going for adverse possession over the road in the name of a trust he wants us all to set up.
            That won't work. No one or more of the frontagers can have been in adverse possession of the road, as they all use it. The most that might be claimed is that, if there are no explicit easements in the first sale deeds (one per house0, easements by presription might have arisen.
            JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
            1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
            2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
            3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
            4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

            Comment


            • #7
              Well he thinks the trust can go for adverse possession AFTER all residents agree to sign over any and all rights (and of course responsibilities to repair) we MAY or MAY NOT have over the road to the trust.

              Its all very unclear who can be said to be responsible. When we bought the property, our solicitor told us that the previous householder had always maintained the part of the roadway in front of the house and that we should proceed on this basis. We have no problem with this but whilst we DO in addition feel some moral obligation to those who maintain that all users of the road should contribute to the repair/upgrading of another section of it, we are not keen on getting sucked in to some grandiose scheme for perfection along the entire roadway (when only a small part of it has become damaged). We are leaning towards a "patch job" as and when necessary rather than a 20k black hole.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree. Do not voluntarily agree to expenses; rely on what the deeds say; and ask your own solicitor what indemnity insurance he/she procured for your protection at time of house purchase.
                JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well he thinks the trust can go for adverse possession
                  I can't really see how a trust can go for adverse possession of a road that is being used by lots of people. It may be possible for individual residents to acquire easements by prescription but I cannot see how a possessory title can be obtained to a road.
                  RICHARD WEBSTER

                  As a conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful (provided it relates to property in England & Wales) but I accept no liability except to fee-paying clients.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                    I agree. Do not voluntarily agree to expenses; rely on what the deeds say; and ask your own solicitor what indemnity insurance he/she procured for your protection at time of house purchase.
                    Heh heh- which bit of my ramble are you agreeing with? As for indemnity insurance, I am not aware that any was arranged (it doesn't say so in our paperwork). Could such a thing be arranged now and how would we go about it?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Miffy View Post
                      Heh heh- which bit of my ramble are you agreeing with?
                      Re paying for grandiose scheme: I agree that you shouldn't!

                      Originally posted by Miffy View Post
                      As for indemnity insurance, I am not aware that any was arranged (it doesn't say so in our paperwork). Could such a thing be arranged now and how would we go about it?
                      It might, but that depends on precise circumstances AND the policy conditions. First, ask your soliciotr whether you're already covered; perhaps the premium was paid by V, so your financial paperwork would not need to mention the expenditure.
                      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1) The deeds that we have access to are silent on the ownership of the road.

                        2)On purchase, we were led to believe that we would be responsible for "our" section of the road.

                        3) On the other hand, we don't want to end up with no access to our property if no one will repair.

                        Do you think we should offer to contribute to a "patch job" on the damage further down the road? Or are you saying we should not even do that?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          1. Did you enquire of your solicitor, as I recommended?
                          2. "...led to believe" is not a good enough argument. To lumber you with a legal obligation takes a covenant- and there's none.
                          3. Get access to earlier deeds.
                          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Update.

                            Finally managed to speak to solicitor and land registry.

                            There is no record of who owns the road at the land registry and the deeds are silent on the matter. Land registry took quick look whilst on phone at likely suspect properties (the 2 old halls at either end of the street) and said that there didn't seem to be anything about the road in their deeds either. They said we could write in for a longer investigation but didn't seem to think it was that likely they would have the information if it was not listed in the deeds.

                            Our solicitor said that whilst he agrees that someone somewhere must own the road (whether they know it or not), without records at the land registry the only way to prove the ownership would be if someone is daft enough to come forward to claim the road. Which they won't do as its a bottomless money pit with no value....No indemnity insurance was taken out.

                            So it looks like we are a bit stuck.

                            We could try making it a bit of a history project and find out who the likely owners would be-but making them accept liability could be a problem anyway. In answer to previous question, the property is in Chester so no closed deeds I guess. However, on the plus side the houses at the end are 1930's, so it might be easier to find out who owned the land they were built on?

                            The only other thing to do seems to be to go for agreement of households to do what is necessary. However, with 20 households, agreement or 100% payment contributions could be challenging to achieve. At least that means we can't be forced into something we don't agree with but what happens if we agree and then some don't pay, I really don't know!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The highways agency, 2 solicitors and an insurance company have advised that responsibility to maintain lies with frontagers if the road is unadopted and ownership cannot be established. So, in line with what we understood and were advised on purchasing the property.

                              Any comments/experience regarding this from our learned members?

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              • Land reg tribunal ..quick question
                                Rosierees
                                If the respondant decides just before a hearing to settle before the hearing and we as applicants also agree what happens after the consent order is sent to the judge
                                ? Thanks...
                                20-08-2017, 11:05 AM
                              • Reply to Land reg tribunal ..quick question
                                Moderator2
                                Two related threads have been merged
                                20-08-2017, 18:58 PM
                              • D I Y Lease Variation.
                                Trevor62
                                Due to the purchase of a freehold (shared 50/50), We need to vary the leases to accommodate the changes for our own purpose. We have be told that there is a fee of 750 pounds per lease, this does not include legal fees.

                                How possible is it to do this process ourselves so to avoid legal...
                                07-07-2017, 09:45 AM
                              • Reply to D I Y Lease Variation.
                                leaseholder64
                                You will need to sign as both leaseholder and trustee for the freehold. I assume this will need to be done as a deed, so you will need to get the signatures witnessed. If there is a mortgage associated with either property, you will need to pay the mortgagee for approval and they may insist on a ...
                                20-08-2017, 10:50 AM
                              • Reply to D I Y Lease Variation.
                                Gordon999
                                You can have a meeting of the 2 freeholders and agree to terminate the collection of ground rent and whatever minors actions which you want . The items agreed by both parties would be entered into a document signed and dated by both of you as variations to the lease which you could send to Land Registry...
                                20-08-2017, 10:41 AM
                              • Selling empty property
                                londiner
                                Hi, I am selling an empty house without a tenant who moved out recently. The Estate agent told me the prospective buyer would live in the house. My solicitor I found online for this transaction based on a very competitive conveyasing fee sent me a contract to sign where the buyer is a limited company...
                                09-08-2017, 19:31 PM
                              • Reply to Selling empty property
                                ram
                                You can ask, but 24hours is irresponsible.
                                But it takes as long as it takes for a solicitor to VERIFY you or he has the funds, then throw the keys into the estate agent that sold the house.What is YOUR RUSH ? for 24 hours.
                                no need to answer as 24 hours is unacceptable.


                                ...
                                19-08-2017, 21:23 PM
                              • Reply to Selling empty property
                                londiner
                                Can I ask solicitor to set interval between exchange of contracts and completion to be 24 hours maximum?

                                And, are there any penalties for the other party if they fail to complete on set day? Can I call off sell if completion does not happen when it should and drags on?
                                19-08-2017, 20:32 PM
                              • Cancellations and the ramifications
                                APorter910
                                My nan has been in the process of selling her house for some time, all of the paperwork has been signed (I’m not sure which) and it’s getting close to her handing the keys over. She is looking to move into a smaller house, but needs to wait until everything is finalised until she can put an offer...
                                Gorvins conveyancing solicitors in Manchester are trusted residential property experts that have decades of experience when it comes to buying or selling homes.
                                17-08-2017, 18:37 PM
                              • Reply to Cancellations and the ramifications
                                Gordon999
                                Your nan should not hand over any keys until the money has been paid into your nan's solicitor. bank account
                                For the sale to proceed , there must be an exchange of sale contracts between buyer and seller solicitors and 10 % deposit paid. and an agreed exchange date.

                                If buyer has...
                                19-08-2017, 18:42 PM
                              Working...
                              X