Adverse Posession of Unregistered Land

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Logical.Lean
    replied
    Worst case, the application alerts the real owner. At this point you can make them an offer for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • pilman
    replied
    An application to be registered as the owner with a possessory title when the land in your possession is unregistered will require an application fee, as well as a fee for the survey that will be undertaken on behalf of Land Registry by Ordnance Survey.

    When the value of the land is stated to be less than £6,000 there is then no requirement for evidence of identity, which is why an application can be undertaken by any individual capable of downloading and completing the necessary forms from the LR web-site.

    Knowing that a surveyor will need to visit the site, that is when the appearance of the land should be such that it appears to be an area of land in your exclusive occupation.
    It is not esential that land has to be fenced off, although that is the most common way of showing exclusive possession with the intention to possess.

    Those are the two requirements to prove that adverse possession for over 12 years has extinguished the legal title of the paper owner, because Section 17 Limitation Act 1980 has that effect.

    After 12 years Section 15 Limitation Act stops the legal owner from starting court proceedings to recover their land, which is why the applicant able to show more than 12 years exclusive possession has a better title that will be recognised by Land Registry, as long as the Surveyor's report concludes that the appearance of the land is such that the application should be completed.

    What has to me mentioned is that even if the application was not accepted by Land Registry that does not require the current use of the land to cease.
    It just means there is no paper title in the name of the person currently using the land, although that person has a better title than anyone other than the owner with the paper deed that confirms his, or her, or its ownership.

    So make the land appear to be yours before the Surveyor comes to view the land is the best advice you can be given.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    If you do an index map search of a piece of land and it comes back indicating it is not registered there is no need to check the boundaries of adjoining land. It must though be remembered that Land Registry plans of amost all registered land are subject to the general boundaries rule and do not show exact boundaries.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cumulus
    replied
    Originally posted by wfd_property View Post
    Couple of things. Were you in occupation before 13th Oct 2003? This is significant to one of your questions above.
    Hi wfd_property, sorry for my late response.

    We have indeed been in occupation way before October 2003, although as Lawcruncher has mentioned above I don't think this matters if the land is unregistered (which it most definitely is).

    Originally posted by wfd_property View Post
    Finally, did HMLR send you a print out of all the titles around your property, usually as little pink shapes? And this land definitely is not pink?
    After confirming the land was unregistered via my own research, I went ahead and did a SIM search for the land in question, with the area precisely highlighted on an OS map. HMLR's letter response stated that "... No application for first registration is shown on the index map" and "...We therefore hold no records in respect of the property". That was all I received (no print out of titles, etc).

    Separate to this, I sourced the title plans of all surrounding properties from HMLR, and can confirm that none of the plan areas (which are clearly marked in red on the plans) encompass the area in question. We are the only property that directly boders the area in question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by wfd_property View Post
    Were you in occupation before 13th Oct 2003? This is significant to one of your questions above.
    Not relevant if the land is unregistered. See section 96(1) of the LRA 2002.

    Leave a comment:


  • wfd_property
    replied
    Couple of things. Were you in occupation before 13th Oct 2003? This is significant to one of your questions above.

    Regarding your main issue, the trees. If its anything like up here, the more 'itinerant' type of chainsaw lads will follow your instructions for pound notes.

    I agree that fully incorporating this land as 'yours' would be a sensible next step.

    Finally, did HMLR send you a print out of all the titles around your property, usually as little pink shapes? And this land definitely is not pink?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Rights can be acquired over registered land by prescription whatever class of title it is registered with.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cumulus
    replied
    Many thanks once again.

    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
    ...but with possessory title you do not until someone applies to get them noted on the register.
    Does this mean that somebody can apply for third-party use of the land after a possessory title has been granted, even if they did not have these rights (and/or were not in the process of obtaining these rights) prior to the granting of the title?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    I am surprised that Land Registry would be unable to tell me, at the time of granting the possessory title, what restrictions the land may have attached to it.
    If the property is not registered the Land Registry cannot know what restrictions affect the land because the title to unregistered land is private.

    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    Is it possible for the land to have no such restrictions, and if further to this, no third party has any interest in the land, it's de facto the same as an Absolute Title?
    Not really because land registered with absolute title can be subject to restrictions. The difference is that with absolute title you know what restrictions affect the land, but with possessory title you do not until someone applies to get them noted on the register.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cumulus
    replied
    Thanks for your response once again, much appreciated.

    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
    A paper owner may, for example, have agreed not to build on the land or use it for a specific purpose
    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
    The essential point is that you get the land for free but without knowing what rights it is subject to.
    I am surprised that Land Registry would be unable to tell me, at the time of granting the possessory title, what restrictions the land may have attached to it. For what it's worth, I'm not planning to build on the land.

    Is it possible for the land to have no such restrictions, and if further to this, no third party has any interest in the land, it's de facto the same as an Absolute Title?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    So this would be some third party that already has access to / use of the land for whatever reason, e.g. some sort of installation (waterworks, etc) on the land? And this third party cannot be prevented from continuing with this activity?
    Correct.


    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    What other privileges does a Possessory Title not grant that an Absolute Title would?
    It is not that it has less privileges, but that it may be subject to things not shown on the title. An important one is restrictive covenants. A paper owner may, for example, have agreed not to build on the land or use it for a specific purpose. That only becomes relevant if you want to develop the land. The position can be covered by indemnity insurance.

    The essential point is that you get the land for free but without knowing what rights it is subject to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cumulus
    replied
    Many thanks once again Lawcruncher.

    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
    However, registration does not cancel the rights of any third party.
    So this would be some third party that already has access to / use of the land for whatever reason, e.g. some sort of installation (waterworks, etc) on the land? And this third party cannot be prevented from continuing with this activity?

    What other privileges does a Possessory Title not grant that an Absolute Title would?



    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    If we were successful, I believe we'd be awarded a posessory title (?)
    Correct.

    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    Am I right in thinking that the only person that could beat a possessory title is the original paper owner, if he/she were ever to surface?
    No. If you get registered it will indicate that the Land Registry are satisfied that the paper owner's title has been extinguished.

    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    Does the owner of a possessory title have any protection against the original owner if they do resurface after the possessory title has been awarded?
    Yes - see answer to previous question. However, registration does not cancel the rights of any third party.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cumulus
    replied
    Many thanks Lawruncher. We might apply in a few years in that case.

    If we were successful, I believe we'd be awarded a posessory title (?). Am I right in thinking that the only person that could beat a possessory title is the original paper owner, if he/she were ever to surface? Does the owner of a possessory title have any protection against the original owner if they do resurface after the possessory title has been awarded?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    On the basis of the details you have supplied I would say there is a fairly good chance that an application would be rejected. I do not think you have done enough to indicate adverse possession. You need to consider doing some or all of the following: fencing the plot; removing the wall at least in part and perhaps forming a path which leads from your land to the plot and then continues to, say, a rotary drier or some feature; whether the path leads to it or not, putting up a clothes line or rotary drier; erecting some feature such as a gazebo, summerhouse or shed; doing some serious gardening such as laying a lawn, setting out flower beds or borders or growing vegetables; doing something with the derelict building if that is possible. The preceding are just suggestions; you do not need to do all of them (though fencing is highly recommended) and other things are possible. The idea is to show that the plot is an integral part of your garden which is actually used, rather than a bit of land you keep clear to stop it being an eyesore. Whatever you do needs to be allowed to settle in before you make an application so that it does not look new when the Land Registry surveyor turns up.

    Basically some expense and/or effort is needed and you have to make a decision as to how much of either you are prepared to risk. In that respect bear in mind that if an application fails it will not stop you using the land. The only way you can lose the land is if the "paper" owner turns up and proves he has a better title than you.

    You also need to bear in mind that extending your garden may need planning permission.

    I have never heard of the Land Registry interviewing neighbours, though that does not mean that if the surveyor spots one during his inspection he may not have a quiet word. Statements from neighbours or others who can confirm the relevant facts are not essential.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Activity

Collapse

  • Purchase of freehold
    by Drewcole
    Hi All,

    I own a 2 bed ground floor flat in a converted Victorian house (2 flats in total) that i have a long lease of 167yrs. I currently pay a ground rent of £160, a service charge of £400 and a insurance premium of £800!

    I have spoken to the owner of the flat above and...
    10-08-2020, 15:16 PM
  • Reply to Purchase of freehold
    by Drewcole
    Hi, I thought it was a little high considering its two flat with a tiny hallway shared that hasn't been maintained since I've owned.

    I guess I can only try, if I do nothing then I'm letting them get away with over charging on the insurance. £1500 for insurance for the two flats seems...
    11-08-2020, 11:40 AM
  • Buying house with sitting tenant
    by carolem
    Residential house for sale with tenant holding over. AST for 6 months granted by letting agents of current owner in November 2019. Since it expired tenant been holding over and paying rent etc. As a potential purchaser who wants to buy it as investment with tenant in situ are there any issues for me...
    07-08-2020, 13:20 PM
  • Reply to Buying house with sitting tenant
    by Gordon999
    Yes, you should arrange for new AST rental agreement because the last one is in the previous owner's name and no longer valid. You have no legal right to hold the tenants deposit without AST agreement. .
    11-08-2020, 10:37 AM
  • Reply to Purchase of freehold
    by Gordon999
    If you find alternative companies are quoting much lower insurance premium, you can ask the current broker to declare how much commission has been paid and then you consider making application to FTT for judgement on the reasonable cost of the buildings insurance. ,

    I think your current...
    11-08-2020, 09:17 AM
  • Reply to Purchase of freehold
    by Drewcole
    Thanks for the replies, so I've had a quick look online to. See how long the lease is on the other flat, she seems to have about 63yrs remaining so the cost to try a purchase the freehold myself is a no go.

    I will write and request the insurance info and try and go down that route. Is there...
    11-08-2020, 07:12 AM
  • Reply to Purchase of freehold
    by Gordon999
    It requires both flats in a building with 2 flats ) to participate in compulsory freehold purchase. See last sentence in section 2 in the free guide.

    https://www.lease-advice.org/advice-...tting-started/

    If the buildings insurance is £800 per flat, you are probably...
    10-08-2020, 18:00 PM
  • Reply to Purchase of freehold
    by Anna1985
    I would check how long is downstairs lease.
    and then would run the estimated costs freehold on lease calculator.
    And go from there.
    10-08-2020, 17:52 PM
  • Documentation for renovations on share of freehold flat
    by Basecamp
    We are a first floor flat, share of freehold with the ground floor flat. We both have a 999 year lease. In 2014 we did a loft conversion. We had a party wall agreement with the other share of freeholder flat, planning permission and it has all been signed off by building control. However, should we...
    06-08-2020, 10:45 AM
  • Reply to Documentation for renovations on share of freehold flat
    by Basecamp
    Thank you for your responses. We will consult w lawyer to have the Deed updated with the new floor plan....
    08-08-2020, 09:16 AM
Working...
X